Religion: Real or Fake

[Ben Kenobi]

Right, good luck choosing not to buy anything that falls under the sales tax. And I guess you can escape the property tax by being homeless.

Actually everything is cheaper here. I don't have to purchase property.

I don't generally take your statements about catholic stuff at face value.

I wouldn't expect you to. I'll see if I can find the study.

Ok. Take a look at this.

http://geography.uwo.ca/research/great_lakes_geographer/GLG_volume3/NelsonEtAl.pdf

Yeah but if you had your way you'd probably do away with public social assistance. And I don't see how shifting the tax burden onto people who don't contribute to charity is any different from giving tax dollars to charity.

I would, yes. I'm convinced that about 40 percent of all disbursements are fraudulent, and that is after administration is taken into account.

[giblets]

Actually everything is cheaper here. I don't have to purchase property.

If you don't, you need to rent from someone who does own property, in which case part of the tax burden will fall on you through a higher price. Or you could be homeless I guess.

I wouldn't expect you to. I'll see if I can find the study.

Ok. Take a look at this.

http://geography.uwo.ca/research/great_lakes_geographer/GLG_volume3/NelsonEtAl.pdf

The interesting bit is that there's a considerable gap at the junior high level but it's very small at the high school level. The study admits the possibility that this is a product of parents with a greater commitment to education being more likely to send their kids to a parochial school.

I would, yes. I'm convinced that about 40 percent of all disbursements are fraudulent, and that is after administration is taken into account.

So you don't have an issue with indirectly making people pay for charity by making charity tax exempt?

[Ben Kenobi]

True, but even with the prop taxes, rents are far lower here.

it's very small at the high school level.

Unfortunately not the same pool of kids. The kids who were in the high schools were a much broader sample, with few if any differences than the regular high schools. The difference was a full 10 percent on the aseessment, which is statisticallly significant.

I have no issue with tax exemptations for charities. So long as the government isn't funding them directly.

[giblets]

True, but even with the prop taxes, rents are far lower here.

The point is that Texas still has unavoidable taxes. OMG SLAVERY!

Unfortunately not the same pool of kids. The kids who were in the high schools were a much broader sample, with few if any differences than the regular high schools. The difference was a full 10 percent on the aseessment, which is statisticallly significant.

What are the sample sizes? Could you point me to the part of the paper that says the high school students are a much broader sample?

I have no issue with tax exemptations for charities. So long as the government isn't funding them directly.

Okay, so you don't have a problem with forcing people to pay for stuff that benefits society.

[Ben Kenobi]

What are the sample sizes? Could you point me to the part of the paper that says the high school students are a much broader sample?

First paragraph on the 6th page, the key passage, "thus contrary to Haertal, cited earlier, the parochial high schoolers came from families with somewhat lower socioeconomic status."

[Lonestar]

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

It's pretty amazing how virtually all of Hitlers anti-christian rhetoric comes second hand from Boorman's book, a person who WAS actually anti-christian(or anti-catholic). Also even more amazing that no original transcripts or recordings survive, or that Hitler was told that it would be a matter of public record just like all his speeches and Mein Kampf but somehow "let his guard down" for this book and made it radically different from all the other 1st hand accounts he gives of his views on religion.

Of course Hitlers FIRST person writings and speeches clearly indicated that he is NOT an atheist and is a Christian, and the vats majority of second hand accounts(with Nazi leadership and various Christian leadership) indicate that he is a Christian.

From Mein Kampf:

Thus, Protestantism will always stand up for the advancement of all Germans as such, as long as matters of inner purity or national deepening as well as German freedom are involved, since all these things have a firm foundation in its own being; but it combats with the greatest hostility any attempt to rescue the nation from the embrace of its most mortal enemy, since its attitude toward the Jews just happens to be more or less dogmatically established.

Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.

From a speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

From a speech in 1945:

Providence shows no mercy to weak nations, but recognizes the right of existence-only of sound and strong nations....

This Jewish bolshevist annihilation of nations and its western European and American procurers can be met only in one way: by using every ounce of strength with the extreme fanaticism and stubborn steadfastness that merciful God gives to men in hard times for the defense of their own lives....

We have suffered so much that it only steels us to fanatical resolve to hate Our enemies a thousand times more and to regard them for what they are destroyers of an eternal culture and annihilators of humanity. Out of this bate a holy will is born to oppose these destroyers of our existence with all the strength that God has given us and to crush them in the end. During its 2,000-year history our people has survived so many terrible times that we have no doubt that we will also master our present plight.

-Adolf Hitler, in a recorded radio address, 24 Feb. 1945

From a Albert Speer account of Hitler:

"The church is certainly necessary for the people. It is a strong and conservative element."

A more generic recollection from Speer, rather than a quote:

Even after 1942 Hitler went on maintaining that he regarded the church as indispensable in political life. He would be happy, he said in one of those teatime talks at Obersalzberg, if someday a prominent churchman turned up who was suited to lead one of the churches- or if possible both the Catholic and Protestant churches reunited. He still regretted that Reich Bishop Muller was not the right man to carry out his far-reaching plans. But he sharply condemned the campaign against the church, calling it a crime against the future of the nation. For it was impossible, he said, to replace the church by any party ideology.

Albert Speer was instructed to include many new churches in the "New Berlin". When he delivered some material to Boorman(the fellow responsible for editing Table-Talk where virtually all of the anti-Christian quotes comes from):

Bormann curtly informed me that churches were not to receive building sites.

Showing a bias against Christianity by the editor of Table-talk.

Otto Wagener, Author of Hitler: Confessions of a confidante: Had this to say:

I do not remember even a single occasion when Hitler gave any instructions that ran counter to the true Christian spirit and to humaness.

And Wagener quoting Hitler directly:

Socialism is a question of attitude toward life, of the ethical outlook on life of all who live together in a common ethnic or national space. Socialism is a Weltanschauung!

But in actual fact there is nothing new about this Weltanschauung. Whenever I read the New Testament Gospels and the revelations of various of the prophets and imagine myself back in the era of the Roman and late Hellenistic, as well as the Oriental world, I am astonished at all that has been made of the teachings of these divinely inspired men, especially Jesus Christ, which are so clear and unique, heightened to religiosity. They were the ones who created this new worldview which we now call socialism, they established it, they taught it and they lived it! But the communities that called themselves Christian churches did not understand it! Or if they did, they denied Christ and betrayed him! For they transformed the holy idea of Christian socialism into its opposite! They killed it, just as, at the time, the Jews nailed Jesus to the cross; they buried it, just as the body of Christ was buried. But they allowed Christ to be resurrected, instigating the belief that his teachings too, were reborn!

It is in this that the monstrous crime of these enemies of Christian socialism lies! What the basest hypocrisy they carry before them the cross-- the instrument of that murder which, in their thoughts, they commit over and over-- as a new divine sign of Christian awareness, and allow mankind to kneel to it. They even pretend to be preaching the teachings of Christ. But their lives and deeds are a constant blow against these teachings and their Creator and a defamation of God!

We are the first to exhume these teachings! Through us alone, and not until now, do these teachings celebrate their resurrection! Mary and Magdalene stood at the empty tomb. For they were seeking the dead man! But we intend to raise the treasures of the living Christ!

Herein lies the essential element of our mission: we must bring back to the German Volk the recognition of those teachings! For what did the falsification of the original concept of Christian love, of the community of fate before God and of socialism lead to? By their fruits ye shall know them! The suppression of freedom of opinion, the persecution of the true Christians, the vile mass murders of the Inquisition and the burning of witches, the armed campaigns against the people of free and true Christian faith, the destruction of towns and villages, the hauling away of their cattle and their goods, the destruction of their flourishing economies, and the condemnation of their leaders before tribunals, which, in their unrelenting hypocrisy, can only be described as balaphemous. That is the true face of those sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man, motivated by selfishness, personal greed for recognition and gain, and the ambition to maintain their high-handed willfulness against Christ's deep understanding of the necessity of a socialist community of men and nations. We must turn all the sentiments of the Volk, all its thinking, acting, even its beliefs, away from the anti-Christian, smug individualism of the past, from the egotism and stupid Phariseeism of personal arrogance, and we must educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each one of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers! This youth will, wit loathing and contempt, abandon those hypocrites who have Christ on their lips but the devil in their hearts, who give alms in order to remain undisturbed as they themselves throw their money around, who invoke the Fatherland as they fill their own purses by the toil of others, who preach peace and incite to war....

And of course quotes from Christian leaders of the day. From the Methodist newspaper Friedensglocke, which related a story of church deaconesses that were invited to visit his home:

The deaconesses entered the chamber and were astonished to see the pictures of Frederick the Great, Luther, and Bismarck on the wall. Then Hitler said:

"Those are the three greatest men that God has given the German people. From Fredrick the Great I have learned bravery, and from Bismarck statecraft. The greatest of the three is Dr. Martin Luther, for he made it possible to bring unity among the German tribes by giving them a common language through his translation of the Bible into German...."

One sister could not refrain from saying: Herr Reichkanzler, from where do you get the courage to undertake the great changes in the whole Reich?

Thereupon Hitler took out of his pocket the New Testament of Dr. Martin Luther, which one could see had been used very much, and said earnestly:

"From God's word."

And from Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich who visited Hitler at the Eagles Nest:

Without a doubt the chancellor lives in faith in God. He recognizes Christianity as the foundation of Western culture..

Sounds like a good Christian boy to me!

[giblets]

First paragraph on the 6th page, the key passage, "thus contrary to Haertal, cited earlier, the parochial high schoolers came from families with somewhat lower socioeconomic status."

How does that show the sample is broader?

[DinoDoc]

From Mein Kampf

A metaphysical line runs through Mein Kampf, not always easy to find amid all the vulgar vilification and barren, long-winded meditations; here a man seeks for God and discovers himself. This is exactly what happened to Soloviev's Antichrist; he too, like Hitler, had written in his thirty-third year, a book in which he claimed to be the Savior.

From a speech

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result".

Another interesting quote:

"Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..."

Would you trust this guy's public statements?

From a Albert Speer

Indeed let's quote Speer:

Amid his political associates in Berlin, Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church, but in the presence of the women he adopted a milder tone—one of the instances where he adapted his remarks to his surroundings. - p. 95 Inside the Third Reich

"The church is certainly necessary for the people. It is a strong conservative element," he might say at one time or another in this private circle. However, he conceived of the church as a instrument that could be useful to him..."Through me the Evangelical [Protestant] Church could become the established church, as in England." ... Undoubtedly, he continued, the church would learn to adapt the political goals of National Socialism in the long run, as it had always adapted in the course of history. - ibid [This gives a different context for one of your quotes. I wonder why you left it out. ]

Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Goebbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide. - p. 95-96 Inside the Third Reich

I do not remember even a single occasion when Hitler gave any instructions that ran counter to the true Christian spirit and to humaness.

This quote of yours should be enough to reject the guy as a source right there.

However can you explain why such a good Christian boy and obviously devout Catholic according to you ordered the murder of Erich Klausener, the German leader of Catholic Action and other Catholic leaders, got married by a secular city official, and made forcible euthanasia state policy?

And of course quotes from Christian leaders of the day.

Ok.
"God always punishes the tormentors of his Chosen People, the Jews."

"The culmination of Revelation in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is final, is binding forever. This revelation has no room for addenda made by human hand, still less for an ersatz or substitute religion based on arbitrary revelations, which some contemporary advocates wish to derive from the so-called myth of blood and race."

"Let us not forget that we were saved not by German blood but by the blood of Christ!" - Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber

Mit brennender Sorge

Sounds like a good Christian boy to me!

From Speer again:
Hitler usually concluded this historical speculation by remarking "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness? - p. 96 Inside the Third Reich

[Lonestar]

Unlike the state, God gives people a choice. He doesn't toss them into jail if they say no.

So you acknowledge that the Great and all Powerful Oz God kills innocents more or less because doing anything else is "just too hard".

And God doesn't give people a choice. I mentioned it before, his choice is "Love me or I'll BLOW YOUR ****ING BRAINS OUT!".

The difference is that if a human said that he would be locked up, but the Divine Progenitor of the universe? He gets a pass.

If he wanted to kill everyone in Egypt why did he sent many different plagues? He wants Pharaoh to agree to release them, and he can't very well do that if he's dead.

Wow dude, you are dumb.

He is precise enough in his killing that he can kill the first born of everyone in Egypt(including the majority of the population that has little to nothing to do with the Jewish enslavement) but he can't launch a decapititation strike on the leadership, leaving a few left to ponder the situation and release the Jews? He can't even just kill all the guards at the camp?"

He either isn't God(capital G) or is a terrible monster who kills whole scale for the hell of it.

And apparently reducing the temple to rubble is 'defending religious freedom.' Gotcha.

Did you know that US Servicemen are allowed to shoot back and even call in airstrikes if they are taking fire from Mosques? The Temple would have been one of the most sturdily built buildings in Jerusalem, and would have been ideal for the rebels to hole up in.

Depends on the king. They exiled the Jews in the first place, so they are decidedly a mixed bag.

So there WERE those who had a concept of religious freedom before the Christians, is what you are saying?

The Edict explicitly protects all religions, including Christianity. Proclaimed by the first Christian Emperor.

I find it intriguing that you can cite this word for word, but aren't willing to quote what Julian did. The Christians proclaimed religious toleration, and the Emperor Julian attempted to exterminate them. Had he been willing to extend the provisions of the Edict of Milan, rather then attempting to exterminate Christianity, the Edict would have been in place for Theodosius. As it was, the Edict of Milan was no longer in force when Theodosius came to power.

If Pagans wish for Christians to show mercy, it's not a good idea to stab us in the back.

Let's see what the Christian writer Sozomenos had to say about Julian:

"It was from these motives that Julian recalled from exile all Christians who, during the reign of Constantius, had been banished on account of their religious sentiments, and restored to them their property that had been confiscated by law. He charged the people not to commit any act of injustice against the Christians, not to insult them, and not to constrain them to offer sacrifice unwillingly. He commanded that if they should of their own accord desire to draw near the altars, they were first to appease the wrath of the demons, whom the pagans regard as capable of averting evil, and to purify themselves by the customary course of expiations."

What a terrible, terrible man Julian was. Possibly considered terrible because he converted back to Paganism.

But I'm glad you're admitting that Religious Freedom is NOT a hallmark of the Christians, and it is perfectly okay to get revenge...even though "Vengeance shall be The Lords".

Christians have generally been attacked by everyone, even by those who attack us for defending ourselves.

So? Coincidentally Christians generally ATTACK everyone, including each other. This doesn't mean that Christians got some kind of persecution that the Jews, Hindus, or Moslems didn't get.

This is a sign that we are right and everyone else is wrong, because no one goes out and says, "oh those naughty pagans", because they expect Pagans to be untrustworthy and vicious. They expect Christians to be tolerant and peaceful.

No one expects that, they only expect that of Christians who completely ignore the Old Testament and selectively pick Jesus quotes in order to make the religion sound all kumbayaya.

Eventually, when the right king came to power, yes. Before that? no. Which is why the Jews were so worried that the permission to rebuild the temple would be rescinded.

So you concede that the concept of religious freedom and tolerance did NOT originate with Christianity?

Is there a similar proclamation anywhere else prior to the Edict of Milan, granting religious freedom throughout the state?

Yup. The Edict of Toleration by Gallienus(Pagan Emperor)

And the Edict of Toleration by Galerius(Pagan Emperor who ended the Diocletion Persecutions).

Oh, and the guy who according to you that granted "religious freedom" also ordered the summary execution of eunuch priests in Egypt and destroyed and pillaged temples, including the Temple of Aphrodite in the Lebanon and equipped christian churches with the plunder. Sure sounds like a great believer in religious freedom.

Oh, and his immediate successor decreed that anyone who sacrificed to a pagan god would be executed on the spot.

The edict says nothing about barring Pagan emperors from returning to power, which is exactly what did happen. If the point of the Edict was to preserve Christian power, then it did a very poor job of it.

Well there is no evidence Hitler saying any anti-Christian thing from a first hand source, but that doesn't stop idiots from going NUH-OH HITLER WAS A ATHEIST/PAGAN.

After Julian expressed desire to exterminate all of us, and he lost the ensuing civil war, yes.

No he didn't, and there was no civil war. The only civil war he fought was against his Christian predecessor(spoiler: He won).

So you admit that the Soviets were anti-Christian? Thank you. Yeah, the Bolsheviks didn't like splitters from their own national religion, be they mensheviks or Trotskyites.

I didn't say that, and I would like for you to answer the ****ing question.

If Atheists espoused religious tolerance, then there would be no sucdistinction, nor reason for them to make said distinction within the Soviet Union.

So the Soviets were not atheists? Also, got ya, more religious tolerance from a Christian: Christians who claim there are Christian are not Christian unless they follow my narrow band of it!

Then why are you so mad at Him?

Holy Crap, I answered this on page 45, to YOU.

By the way, one cannot be "mad" at something that doesn't exist. I am merely pointing out that the "God" you worship is a horrible monster. And you ****ing know it but are rationalizing it away under the aegis of "free will".

How many of them are out there protesting the ten commandments, and the retention of a cross on public grounds? Plenty, sir.

Good, but you know what? They don't come to my door and knock.

And by the by, they are not protesting a religion, they are protesting their tax dollars being spent to support a religious view that is not their own.

Well yes, gassing Jews is sort of an evil deed. I suppose they should have said nothing and then Hitler would have eliminated them anyways.

Guess that point went flying over your head, once again. When the Nazi Regime killed religious men it was because the INDIVIDUALS were acting as enemies of the state.

So you can't tell me who Hitler had as his confessor, or where he attended Church. Yet, you assert that he is a Catholic. Catholics, unlike other Christians have expectations and requirements wrt attendence. Right there in the doctrine. So when someone claims to be Catholic, the correct question is where is their parish and who is their confessor? Practicing Catholics will have both.

You're splitting hairs. Hitler accepted Jesus as the Messiah, which would be more than enough for most protestant denominations. Crap, even today the Catholic Church doesn't refer to protestants as non-Christians.

He was quite into the teachings of the Order of Teutons.

So? I watch the X-Files that doesn't mean I'm expecting an alien invasion in 2012.

So let's see. On your hand, you cannot tell me where he attended Church or who his confessor was, but I can tell you who introduced him to the occult. GSM.

I posted SEVERAL first and second hand accounts that indicated that he believed he was a Christian in response to DD's dumbass post. You are posting stuff that might be drawn from a crappy special on the History Channel, and are beign incredibly vague and non specific.

Which makes them rather intolerant, n'est-ce pas? You aren't helping your argument here.

Your thesis is that they are intolerant because they are atheists and not because they are a bunch of men who want to hold onto power no matter what.

It's in my job description. You might as well act surprised when a chaplain attempts to dissuade you from abandoning Christ.

(1)This is a government agency, not a parochial school
(2)That isn't in a (military) Chaplain's job description.

I am aware, and the oath I can't swear because I'm supposed to let my yes be yes, and no, no, and not swear on God at all.

Kinky Friedman?

The guy who had as a campaign slogan "My Governor is a Jewish Cowboy" ? Boy, he totally isn't placing emphasis on a religious identity there, is he?

You say that as if all places in the US were certain towns in Virginia. No states have this as a state-wide law, and only some smaller jurisdictions do. Compared with liquor regulations in other countries, this is quite free.

(1)The judicial rulings on the United States Constitution(well, the first Amendment) explicitly separates church from state, and Blue Laws are certainly a resort of religious meddling. Unlike other countries(say, Canada) "God" is not mentioned in the Canada.

(2)And I am referring to mostly rural towns, yes. But it isn't limited to the South.

Communities have the right to determine things such as holidays, times of operation, etc. To obtain a liquor license one must abide by these regulations. If a person is unhappy with the laws in a jurisdiction, they are free to move elsewhere. Considering as you actually reside in a jurisdiction that does not have these regulations, this is liberty in action.

That seems to be a really fancy way to say "communities have a right to enforce commerce based upon religious rules".

Hmm? You need to reread that, I was arguing in favour of episcopalians in the time of the revolution being Christian.

Nope, I don't believe you. You see, while there are numerous first person accounts of some founding fathers expressing religious views, I saw on a ****ty History channel that Washington was a member of the occult(Freemason), and therefore not a Christian.

Tell me if that reasoning there is at ALL familiar.

Yet you don't cite who. Was quorum present?

Yup. 23 of the sitting 32 Senators were present, and all voted to ratify it.

Yep, sure am. The state not telling me what to do with my money is an important part of freedom.

Yet you find it perfectly acceptable the state to tell spend my money support a religion I don't follow...interesting.

This is point well taken. However personal taxes are substantially less there than elsewhere, and government debt is reasonably low.

Turns out being at the low end of "first world" means that costs are cheap?

I've done that many times, it's not nearly as expensive or difficult as you make it out to be. With proper organization, it's much cheaper than a movie ticket and far more entertaining.

In Singapore?

I support the right of the community to having zoning regulations too which is a restriction on commerce.

You support the right of a community to restrict commerce based upon religious mumbo-jumbo.

Didn't they teach you to be prepared?

"Man! How could you have not anticipated that ****ing walmart would be closed on a Sunday because of religious mumbo-jumbo?"

And public schools are doing a poor job of accomplishing this.

"We're having problems with Public schools, therefore we should just abolish them entirely.

Yes, and I'd only have to quote the chief justices of the united states, in Scalia and Thomas to defend the thesis. Not to mention several law professors that I have known and been friends with over the years. Legal progressivism is a relatively new construct. I'm not a lawyer, but I do read them and what they have to say about jurisprudence.

Scalia is on record as saying that he wouldn't "Prosecute Jack Bauer for torture", so we know how well his grasp on reality is and what he thinks of civil rights. Scalia has a stated goal to "prevent the excise of religion from public life" , and is an active part of Catholic groups. I'm sure that he is modestly influenced by what his priest tells him.

Why would Christians only teach the rich? Parochial schools have been very effective and open to all. They also result in a lowering of the costs of education, as they can provide educational services at a much lower cost than the public school system.

I believe I left open the possibility of Christian-style Madrassas, thank you for confirming that that is your goal.

The belief that philosophy and natural philosophy are distinct realms of thought is an opinion not a fact.

One is derived from empirical evidence and the other is derived from the ramblings of loons in the desert several thousand years ago. There is a SLIGHT difference.

I am not arguing that religion ought to be taught in science courses, I am simply arguing that theories which at present do not have direct observational evidence ought not be taught. I am also arguing that one cannot teach science without teaching the method and definition of science, which are very much philosophical concepts which explain empiricism. Science is a branch of empiricism, and anyone who cannot understand empiricism will make a poor scientist.

I guess that explains why so many creationists think that "Intelligent Design" is "science", huh?

Justice Thomas disagrees.

I've met Justice Thomas, he is a affable, good natured man. He is certainly someone I would invite to a BBQ. He is also someone who is devoutly religious and allows that to cloud his judicial rulings and statements.

I could if protestors would permit me.

So is this your way of sticking your fingers in your ears and going ALALALALALALALAL I CAN'T HEAR YOU?

So you are ok with forcing people to pay for things that they do not want to pay for because you believe that you know better than they do. Is that correct? You are willing to throw someone in jail for this?

Paying taxes is part of a social contract, whereby SOME of my money is taken away to pay for programs that benefit many. The difference is that my money should not go to support a religious view which is, well, bull****. I do not believe that God exists because there is zero evidence, zilch, nada, that he does, and so my money should not be going to support something that literally DOES NOT EXIST.

Indeed, we are free here in Texas, much more so than in the slave states of the union. Once Virginia was free as we are now, but they are no longer. Once every state was as free as we are, but they have almost all chosen slavery.

Yes Ben. Income tax is EXACTLY like slavery. You should build a time machine(I hear God has one) and go back in time and tell Frederick Douglass that.

49th? That's terrible. Who's slipped past us?



God. "they are endowed by their Creator certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Required teaching in my civics class, btw. I have to teach the declaration of independence as is.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

And the Constitution is what we base the functioning of our country on, not a mission statement.

Given that Fairfax VA is relatively proximate to Washington DC one can surmise that government spending procures a significant proportion of employment, which also explains your position in favour of said employment. We know this because the statewide employment in VA is drastically different than in Fairfax. Not so with TX.

Which doesn't stop the "Small Guv'ment" Virginia State Government types from raiding the Bank of Fairfax to support the rest of Mississippi North.

[DinoDoc]

@ Lonestar: Personally I don't think the man was an atheist. However I don't see much credible evidence that the man had a god he paid homage to more than himself.

[Ben Kenobi]

How does that show the sample is broader?

The HS kids come from a wider range of backgrounds.

[giblets]

The HS kids come from a wider range of backgrounds.

How do you infer that from "lower socioeconomic status"? That could just mean a different range of backgrounds.

[DaShi]

We should have a poll. Who is more dishonest: Ben or DD?

[Ben Kenobi]

So you acknowledge that the Great and all Powerful Oz God kills innocents more or less because doing anything else is "just too hard".

Which is why he sent plenty of warnings. You've still not addressed that question as to why if God wanted to kill people, why he sent 6 plagues before.

And God doesn't give people a choice. I mentioned it before, his choice is "Love me or I'll BLOW YOUR ****ING BRAINS OUT!".

Sure he does. If you enslave people bad things happen. Let them go, and good things happen. Had Pharoah shown mercy when confronted by Moses, none of the plagues would have happene.

The difference is that if a human said that he would be locked up, but the Divine Progenitor of the universe? He gets a pass.

Are you suggesting that he hasn't been merciful?

He is precise enough in his killing that he can kill the first born of everyone in Egypt(including the majority of the population that has little to nothing to do with the Jewish enslavement)

Which is why Moses kept telling him, that the God of Israel was telling Pharoah, "LET MY PEOPLE GO!"

It had everything to do with slavery.

he can't launch a decapititation strike on the leadership, leaving a few left to ponder the situation and release the Jews?

Pharoah dies. New Pharoah comes up. Rinse repeat. Save killing all of Egypt, the alternative was to convince this Pharoah that he had to free the Israelites. It wasn't until his own son died that he was convinced that he must do so.

He can't even just kill all the guards at the camp?

We're talking about hundreds of thousands of people here, Lonestar. He'd have to kill most, if not all of those in charge of Egypt.

He either isn't God(capital G) or is a terrible monster who kills whole scale for the hell of it.

Which is why he warned Pharaoh 6 times prior to killing anyone?

Did you know that US Servicemen are allowed to shoot back and even call in airstrikes if they are taking fire from Mosques?

Are you aware that suicide bombers are willing to set off their bombs killing women and children, provided they hit at least one infidel? If they turn a mosque into an armory, don't be surprised if it gets rolled.

The Temple would have been one of the most sturdily built buildings in Jerusalem, and would have been ideal for the rebels to hole up in.

They destroyed the entire city of Jerusalem. It took 300 years before the population started to recover.

So there WERE those who had a concept of religious freedom before the Christians, is what you are saying?

There was A king who passed a law permitting the Jews to reconstruct their temple and return to their homeland. Suggesting that this was common policy throughout the Persian empire outside of this one king, is a much more difficult question.

The edict on the other hand, did just that, in promising religious freedom to everyone, not just Christians.

"It was from these motives that Julian recalled from exile all Christians who, during the reign of Constantius, had been banished on account of their religious sentiments, and restored to them their property that had been confiscated by law. He charged the people not to commit any act of injustice against the Christians, not to insult them, and not to constrain them to offer sacrifice unwillingly. He commanded that if they should of their own accord desire to draw near the altars, they were first to appease the wrath of the demons, whom the pagans regard as capable of averting evil, and to purify themselves by the customary course of expiations."

Which is why his reign lasted 2 years, and he was executed. Are you suggesting that making Paganism the official religion of the empire is an example of religious freedom?

But I'm glad you're admitting that Religious Freedom is NOT a hallmark of the Christians, and it is perfectly okay to get revenge...even though "Vengeance shall be The Lords".

Seeing as you served in the Navy, I find it rather hypocritical that you would condemn folks for defending themselves. Or were you just in it for the pay? Do tell. Attack Christians, and they fight back. Leave them be and things work out just fine for everyone.

So? Coincidentally Christians generally ATTACK everyone

Name one time that Christians have struck first.

No one expects that,

You are holding us to a standard that you yourself will not hold, or abide. That speaks volumes. Lonestar, I was on the other side, not that long ago. Arguments like these are what helped bring me over to the side of the Christians. So please continue. You're a navy man and you believe that self-defense is wrong? How on earth does that work?

And if Vengeance is to be left to God, then why are you complaining when God slew the Egyptian firstborn in retribution for the Egyptians enslaving the Israelites.

So you concede that the concept of religious freedom and tolerance did NOT originate with Christianity?

The Christians were the first to enact religious freedom and tolerance on a nation wide basis. There are isolated examples prior.

And the Edict of Toleration by Galerius(Pagan Emperor who ended the Diocletion Persecutions).

So pagans get points when they stop beating their wives. Cool. Perhaps it would have been kind of them not to beat them in the first place.

Oh, and his immediate successor decreed that anyone who sacrificed to a pagan god would be executed on the spot.

Who would this be? Julian? Theodosius wasn't the 'immediate successor'.

Well there is no evidence Hitler

Heh. So you concede the point. Thank you. All I was after.

No he didn't, and there was no civil war. The only civil war he fought was against his Christian predecessor

And two years later he was killed. So he *didn't* win.

I didn't say that, and I would like for you to answer the ****ing question.

I did. You're quite right that dissidents to their national religion were expelled and persecuted too.

So the Soviets were not atheists?

You miss the point. If the Soviets sincerely believed in religious tolerance they wouldn't be persecuting anyone because of their Christian beliefs. That they assisted some of them, is logical evidence that they rejected religious tolerance by playing favourites.

I am merely pointing out that the "God" you worship is a horrible monster.

For killing the Egyptian firstborn after they chose to cling to slavery rather then freeing the Israelites? Really? You think that was wrong of Him to seek vengeance from the oppressors?

under the aegis of "free will".

And you are rationalizing slavery. Pharaoh had a choice. He chose to continue enslaving the Israelites, rather than LET THEM GO!

I daresay God was more merciful than Sherman. He only took the firstborn.

Good, but you know what? They don't come to my door and knock.

So why not move to Montana and have your own compound?

And by the by, they are not protesting a religion, they are protesting their tax dollars being spent to support a religious view that is not their own.

They are opposing free speech which permits and defends atheist expression as well as Christian expression. Again, you don't seem to like free speech very much at all.

I don't like many things that atheists say to me, or annoying and aggravating bumper stickers. But heck, suck it up buttercup. I'm in America. If I don't like it, it's my right to be JUST AS ANNOYING! Thank God for freedom.

Guess that point went flying over your head, once again. When the Nazi Regime killed religious men it was because the INDIVIDUALS were acting as enemies of the state.

Really, which is why when individuals attempted to assassinate him, he blamed the Pope. And assassinated not only the conspirators, but their families and anyone who had any contact with them at all. Hitler didn't seem to get this whole 'individual' thing.

You're splitting hairs.

I don't think I am. You made the accusation that Hitler is Catholic, when there is zero evidence that he practiced it, especially when he became a public figure of any significance. Yet, there is significant evidence for his dealings in the occult throughout his time in power in Nazi Germany. As for the X-Files comments, you'll willing disregard evidence which contradicts your beliefs. So, look it up yourself. Don't believe me.

I posted SEVERAL first and second hand accounts that indicated that he believed he was a Christian

Irrelevant. I asked two specific questions that are crucial to any discussion of his faith. Is he Catholic? Apparently not. Where's the evidence for Herr Schicklegruber?

Your thesis is that they are intolerant because they are atheists and not because they are a bunch of men who want to hold onto power no matter what.

They are atheists, and they are intolerant. Intolerance is ok when you want power? Yet you blame Christians for acting in self-defense. Curious.

(2)That isn't in a (military) Chaplain's job description.

You said, that I was willing to use my official capacity to influence you in this regard. It *is* in my job description. I'm also not working for the government.

(1)The judicial rulings on the United States Constitution(well, the first Amendment) explicitly separates church from state, and Blue Laws are certainly a resort of religious meddling. Unlike other countries(say, Canada) "God" is not mentioned in the Canada.

You do know that Canada has publicly funded parochial schools? As in, the state pays for everything. And it IS constitutional.

(2)And I am referring to mostly rural towns, yes. But it isn't limited to the South.

Salt Lake does similar things. I don't live in Salt Lake.

That seems to be a really fancy way to say "communities have a right to enforce commerce regulations within their community."

Yep, sure is.

Nope, I don't believe you. You see, while there are numerous first person accounts of some founding fathers expressing religious views, I saw on a ****ty History channel that Washington was a member of the occult(Freemason), and therefore not a Christian.

Why are you arguing with a tv program?

Yup. 23 of the sitting 32 Senators were present, and all voted to ratify it.

Interesting. I'm aware that Congress did also state that no law would be made establishing a religion either, in the belief that lack of state endorsement would free Christians.

Yet you find it perfectly acceptable the state to tell spend my money support a religion I don't follow...interesting.

Where is the state using your money to fund religious endeavours? Outside of supporting Osama Bin Laden, and propping up the Saudis?

Turns out being at the low end of "first world" means that costs are cheap?

I've been on the low end. This ain't it.

In Singapore?

Oh, you meant Singapore. I thought you were talking about the US. My bad.

"Man! How could you have not anticipated that ****ing walmart would be closed on a Sunday because of religious mumbo-jumbo?"

When it's -20 below you'd best pack enough propane. Sorry, no sympathy. Be prepared before you set off into the wilderness. Who wants to be frozen pudding pop bear breakfast?

We're having problems with Public schools, therefore we should just abolish them entirely.

Alternatives to public schools are doing well. Public schools are not. Therefore we should be giving more money to public schools. In-sanity. If it's broken, fix it. If fixing it means getting rid of it because corruption won't let you fix the schools, then get rid of it. Maybe the education bureaucracy will surprise me.

we know how well his grasp on reality is

The point is that you disagree with him, because he's catholic. That's got no bearing on the merit of his jurisprudential argument that Christianity provides the basis for the legal system of the United States.

Shouting, "He's Catholic so he's insane", is a ****ty argument.

I believe I left open the possibility of Christian-style Madrassas, thank you for confirming that that is your goal.

Parochial schools have always been present in America. Privately funded, though. Madrassas on the other hand?

One is derived from empirical evidence and the other is derived from the ramblings of loons in the desert several thousand years ago. There is a SLIGHT difference.

You can't do science without understanding empiricism and how it works. Faith on the other hand...

I've met Justice Thomas, he is a affable, good natured man. He is certainly someone I would invite to a BBQ. He is also someone who is devoutly religious and allows that to cloud his judicial rulings and statements.

You have? Cool. I wish I could meet Justice Thomas. I disagree with you, I strongly suspect that the problem isn't on his end. You'll happily say that justices whom agree with you are unbiased, whereas one who disagree with you are coloured by their religion.

I'm a realist. Every justice sitting on the bench is coloured by their religion. It's impossible, nor is it desireable to remove them for adhering to their faith.

Paying taxes is part of a social contract

So part of the social contract is throwing people in jail for refusing to pay? Isn't this the violence inherent in the system?

Yes Ben. Income tax is EXACTLY like slavery. You should build a time machine(I hear God has one) and go back in time and tell Frederick Douglass that.

Seeing as income tax wasn't invented until 1913, I suspect that you'd be disappointed to hear what he had to say about THIS! How is it any different from slavery, except that one cannot purchase their way out?

As for the ranking, I'm genuinely curious. Who's slipped past us?

Rights come from God not men. Rights coming from men is worthless, because men can take them away.

Which doesn't stop the "Small Guv'ment" Virginia State Government types from raiding the Bank of Fairfax to support the rest of Mississippi North.

Considering as you thieve from every one of the 50 states, that's laughable. Points to VA for milking the bank of Fairfax.

[Ben Kenobi]

How do you infer that from "lower socioeconomic status"? That could just mean a different range of backgrounds.

The Juniors were +40 percent. The HS students were +10 percent. If they were of lower socioeconomic status than the HS students then your thesis is in trouble.