Religion: Real or Fake

[Lonestar]

If he does, then why did he destroy the world in a flood after he believed that he had failed in his creation? Then after he made a promise to Noah, that he would never again destroy the world in a flood, but would try something different with man. He wants us to be with him in heaven, but he wants us to choose to love him.

So omnipotent that he couldn't save the animals himself, huh? He had to get the one "righteous guy" on the planet to build him a boat.

Of course this shows that God doesn't consider children innocent. Whoops! I guess that blows the whole "children and people who have never heard of the story of Jesus are automatically saved" theory out of the water. So much for several billion people. But hey, God is loving and into "free will", right?

Mind, God later showed precision is killing only the first born of the Egyptians(sucks to be you if you were just some camel herders kid), so it isn't like he couldn't have just killed all the adults and left the kids.

I disagree. Christians originated the concept of religious freedom.

How did Christians originate the concept of religious freedom before the Romans did? Or the Greek Philosophers? Or the Persians? Hell, I seem to remember that the Persians went out of their way to return the Jews that had been relocated back to their homelands so they could continue their own religious practices.

I forget, what did the Christians do when they got into power in the Roman Empire? Help me out. Was it live and let live? No....

In the officially atheist soviet union, Christians were not free to practice and many who openly espoused Christianity were jailed in the gulags.

Wrong. In fact the Bolshies helped re-established the office of the Patriarch of Moscow, which had been a Synod Council since Peter the Great's time.

If what you say is true, we would not have seen such persecution in the Soviet Union, yet that is precisely what we do see.

That an all-knowing and all-powerful God gets his shiggles from seeing people suffer? That would actually support my thesis(were it true), not undermine it.

We see the same thing with Hitler in the Third Reich. The same thing is happening in China today, where one cannot be openly Christian and defy the regime.

Hitler was a Christian. He even mandated prayer in school and had "God is With us" as the motto of the SS. Crap it took me under a minute to find dozens of quotes straight from Mein Kampf that indicated he was a Christian.

As for China, I would point out that China doesn't pretend to be anything other than what it is. The United States, at least in terms of religion, do.

Yet, here in America, what penalties are imposed by Christians on Atheists? Are you forced to wear a star of david? Are you arrested?

When I changed my religious preference in my navy personnel file from Southern Baptist to Atheist the YN2 went out of his way to argue with me against changing it. He finally produced the paper work after I threatened to track down the Ships Office Chief. IN other words, he was using his official capacity to try to label me in a way that I'm not.

Are you free to practice your occupation? Are you permitted to buy and sell and trade?

Not on Sundays in some jurisdictions. I also can't hold public office in some states(for example, Texas).

Are you permitted to write about atheism and declare that you hate God without further punishment?

Sure, but I haven't complained about that.

You are free to do all of these things. Why? Because America was built on the principle of religious freedom where the refugees of various statist systems that persecuted believers and unbelievers were permitted to come to America, and make their own way on the world. You live in the freest country in the world, founded by Christians, and you are worried about the Christians persecuting you?

(1)The Founding Fathers were not Christians in the sense that you or most Teabaggers would say they were.

(2)Freest Country in the world? What metric are you using for that measurement? There are countries in Europe that have all the protections extended in the United States, and some that are not.

So having to stock up on Saturday is persecution?

Interesting. You were just saying that nothing is preventing me from buying and selling. So if I own a store in, oh, Bristol Virginia and I am an atheist, I am forced to follow a religious edict.

Let me tell you something. When I lived in Canada, I cannot simply walk into the nearest corner store and buy whatever alcohol they happen to have. I had to go to the government controlled liquor store, which was open only during normal business hours. Their selection was limited and prices were high.

Yep, that's the case in Virginia as well. So?

Here, I can buy from a huge range of alcohol, even at 3am in the morning as it is carried in 24/7 grocery stores. And they fight for customers by keeping prices low. Would I trade the right to shop on Sunday for having better selection, cheaper prices, and 24 hours during the week? Heck yes. You don't even live in an area where blue laws are in effect, so you are complaining that communities that you don't live in choose to limit the hours that merchants can trade alcohol. You've made your decision to live elsewhere, which means that liberty is working.

Interestingly, I just indicated that I do have a limitation in blue laws from State-own ABC stores.

I like "you made your decision to live elsewhere so liberty is working". I guess If I go on a hike in the Southern Appalachians and I end up wanting to pick up some camping gear on Sunday while I'm down there, well, I'm just SOL right?

So you don't consider it a problem when money is taken from people in order to provide for the school system? Shouldn't parents be the ones paying to educate their children? If we expect people to pay for the school system, then the one who pays the piper plays the tune.

If you don't want your children to go to a public school, you can educate them yourself. Liberty again at work. If you don't think your money should be going to public schools that do not educate well, then you have my full support.

Where'd I say that I had a problem with taxes paying for public school systems? I have no children and I don't piss and moan about paying taxes when I know that the lion's share(in Fairfax County, at least) is going to go to the Public School system.

Nice completely dodging the issue of elected school boards putting outright lies in text books and pushing religious views in science classes. Which is what I was complaining about. My taxes going to support a religious view that I don't agree with, huh! Why that almost seems like persecution! Perhaps some kind of latter-day Ottoman tax!

Where do you think Laws come from, Lonestar? They don't just spring about naturally. The US could implement the Laws of the Soviet Union, which lacked important things like trial by jury, and habeaus corpus. You swear on a bible, because in America, the laws are based on the bible, on the concepts of freedom and liberty expressed therein.

The laws aren't "Based on the Bible", you twit, they are based on English Common Law.

And By the by, the Bible has scant about "freedom and liberty". The Bible gives passes to genocide, religious persecution, slavery, and in fact actively supports all that.

Neither can I. Some Christians, (Mennonites among them), have a problem with swearing a loyalty oath to the State.

Are these churches funded by private enterprise? How many businesses advertize to you on a daily basis? You watch cable tv at all?

Are you seriously comparing advert circulars and TV advertisements to banging on someone's door? The only "secular" solicitors I get around here are during election seasons, and a not insignificant portion of them are actively pushing the referendum of choice based on their biblical morality.

You are correct that publicly funded secularists don't solicit you for money. They take from your paycheck and put you in jail when you refuse to pay for their largesse, and programs that you never voted for, and do not want or need. *

OH no I got to pay taxes to support infrastructure and law enforcement and defense spending, stuff that increases the quality of life of EVERYONE, not just religious(or secularist) groups.

*Barring certain free states like TX and FL. Slave states, YMMV.

Oh boy, Texas that has a $27bil budget hole and is 49th in per capita spending on its people. And oh yeah, you can't get married if you're gay, or hold public office if you're an atheist. You can have a bankrupt state government AND have your personal freedoms stripped!

If you don't like solicitors, (and there are plenty of non-religious ones), live in a gated community where they cannot bother you. Liberty wins again.

"It isn't MY fault that you're unwilling to spend exorbitant amounts of cash to get away from the problem."

Let me ask you something, Lonestar. What are the consequences for you in America for expressing any of the opinions you've said here?

Ben,

I have never, ever, once in this thread said that I will suffer any consequences for saying on the internet that I had a certain amount of skepticism of the existence of God(capital g). What I have said is that the God Squad goes out of their way to marginalize through legal means anyone who does not follow their religion and at least one person on this thread has advocated that people should harass people in person at their own homes.

Well sure. Persecution amounts to your neighbour knocking on your door and then leaving.

It sure is amazing how you assume everything happens in a vacuum, isn't it?

[Docfeelgood]

wow! you must not be able to sleep also.

[Lonestar]

wow! you must not be able to sleep also.

I work the mids (2300-0700) in a government NOC. What's everyone else's excuse for posting in the middle of the night/early morning?

[Docfeelgood]

Oh , when I'm working it usually is at night also.

[Wezil]

I work the mids (2300-0700) in a government NOC. What's everyone else's excuse for posting in the middle of the night/early morning?

I guess that would explain why you are debating with Ben. It is apparent he hasn't changed since he was last here.

[Elok]

So God is just a time traveler, as opposed to all-knowing and all-powerful? Because one is a lot different than the other.

Yes, but both are utterly irrelevant. The fact that He knows what you're going to choose does not necessarily mean that you are not actually making the choice yourself. There's really no reason why it would.

[Ben Kenobi]

Grr, Logged off poly and it ate my reply.

[Ben Kenobi]

Wezil, why would you assume I've changed?

I left Canada for Texas.

[Wezil]

Grr, Logged off poly and it ate my reply.

Yeah Poly.

[Wezil]

Wezil, why would you assume I've changed?

I left Canada for Texas.

I would make no such assumption.

Just hoping.

[Ben Kenobi]

So omnipotent that he couldn't save the animals himself, huh? He had to get the one "righteous guy" on the planet to build him a boat.

Considering he created them in the first place, the question as to why he asked Noah to save them is an interesting question.

Of course this shows that God doesn't consider children innocent. Whoops! I guess that blows the whole "children and people who have never heard of the story of Jesus are automatically saved" theory out of the water. So much for several billion people. But hey, God is loving and into "free will", right?

The passage right before talks about how the world was entirely evil. What do you think are the prospects for children in such world?

Mind, God later showed precision is killing only the first born of the Egyptians(sucks to be you if you were just some camel herders kid), so it isn't like he couldn't have just killed all the adults and left the kids.

Pharaoh already ignored repeated pleas to free the Jews from bondage. Don't want YHWH killing your firstborns? Don't enslave other people, and don't ignore the 6 other plagues that he sends. Hello Pharaoh, rains of frogs that the Jewish High Priest predicted? Maybe the Jewish God is angry with you, eh?

How did Christians originate the concept of religious freedom before the Romans did?

The same Romans destroyed the Second Temple?

Edict of Milan.

Or the Greek Philosophers?

Depends on who you talk to. Never enacted on a statewide basis, although you'd probably convince me and others that some of the cities, (Athens in particular), had a reasonably strong provision for it. I'll concede the point. Hellenistic world was generally tolerant by both necessity and design.

Persians? Well considering as they conquered and exiled the Jews in the first place, YMMV. Depended on who was in charge.

I forget, what did the Christians do when they got into power in the Roman Empire?

The first thing they did was declare the Edict of Milan which permitted religious freedom throughout the Roman Empire.

Wrong. In fact the Bolshies helped re-established the office of the Patriarch of Moscow, which had been a Synod Council since Peter the Great's time.

Actually wrote an essay on that synod council, which was an elevation. Peter was a big fan of the Third Rome theory, it suited his general western outlook.

That being said, if you weren't Orthodox, you were persecuted in the Soviet union and those who spoke out, particularly Catholics, and Baptists, were sent to the gulags. I have plenty of accounts first hand.

That an all-knowing and all-powerful God gets his shiggles from seeing people suffer? That would actually support my thesis(were it true), not undermine it.

That the problem is *people*, not God. That's my thesis, lonestar. Atheists are intolerant and that to me says that people and not God are the source of much of the suffering in the world today.

Hitler was a Christian. He even mandated prayer in school and had "God is With us" as the motto of the SS. Crap it took me under a minute to find dozens of quotes straight from Mein Kampf that indicated he was a Christian.

Which is why he executed Catholic priests for speaking out against his regime? Who was his confessor? Which parish did he attend? Just because he claims to be a Christian, doesn't mean that he was one. He was heavily into the occult, and wanted to restore pre-Christian pagan Germany.

As for China, I would point out that China doesn't pretend to be anything other than what it is.

Thank you. So you admit that the primary atheist regime in the world today is hostile and persecutes Christians. That's all I was after here.

When I changed my religious preference in my navy personnel file from Southern Baptist to Atheist the YN2 went out of his way to argue with me against changing it.

But he acceded to your wishes? I'd probably have done the same, depending on how well I'd known you. It's not a choice or a decision to be taken upon lightly. If you want to walk away from God, that is entirely your choice.

Not on Sundays in some jurisdictions. I also can't hold public office in some states(for example, Texas).

I sympathize with the loyalty oath issue, as that hits me too. I think it's unwise to swear an oath to the state. As for selling on Sunday, I personally believe that it should be up to the retailer. If the retailer wishes to sell on Sunday, then that should be his decision. However, the community has the right to set community standards, including opening times. If the community as a whole wishes to vote on it and pass it, then they should be free to do so as well.

I wouldn't support a national ban, or a state ban, as I believe that would impose significant hardship on non-Christians such as yourself. I think people should be able to go into a liquor store on Sunday and buy booze.

(1)The Founding Fathers were not Christians in the sense that you or most Teabaggers would say they were.

They were for the most part Episcopalian and Quaker as opposed to Evangelical and Pentecostal. Different religious traditions do not make them less Christian, and you can't gage them all by some of the things that Jefferson said.

Freest Country in the world? What metric are you using for that measurement? There are countries in Europe that have all the protections extended in the United States, and some that are not.

Good question. Personal experience. I'd rate Switzerland, Australia and Singapore up there too. All have fairly low tax regimes, a general tradition of stable democratic governance, fairly high decentralization (Switzerland is the only one that comes close to the US in that regard, etc). I believe the US has the whole package. Many of the things that you take for granted are not present in other countries. I don't rank the Scandinavian countries as high, because their personal taxes are far higher than in the US, and they believe that the welfare state is a sign that their state is strong, not weak. Which is the opposite for many parts of the US. YMMV though, California gets low marks from me on the 'freedom' scale.

Interesting. You were just saying that nothing is preventing me from buying and selling. So if I own a store in, oh, Bristol Virginia and I am an atheist, I am forced to follow a religious edict.

True, but if they mandate that you close shop at 7, you are also forced to abide by the community standards such as they are. There are all kinds of community standards, and closing shop at certain hours or on sunday is just one of them.

I like "you made your decision to live elsewhere so liberty is working". I guess If I go on a hike in the Southern Appalachians and I end up wanting to pick up some camping gear on Sunday while I'm down there, well, I'm just SOL right?

Yep. Plan ahead. Wouldn't hike personally without the camping gear. Something to do with the weather being cold where I am from.

Where'd I say that I had a problem with taxes paying for public school systems? I have no children and I don't piss and moan about paying taxes when I know that the lion's share(in Fairfax County, at least) is going to go to the Public School system.

I never said that you did, I'm curious as to why you have a problem with what they teach, but not that they teach at all. You're willing to pay for them, why? So that they can push your beliefs? Interesting. If you are on the side of getting rid of them entirely, then I'm on your side. If you want to pay and fund them so that they can push your beliefs, then you aren't any different from the religious folks.

The laws aren't "Based on the Bible", you twit, they are based on English Common Law.

Which comes from where?

And By the by, the Bible has scant about "freedom and liberty". The Bible gives passes to genocide, religious persecution, slavery, and in fact actively supports all that.

"If you can obtain your freedom, do so." "God-given rights, to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

OH no I got to pay taxes to support infrastructure and law enforcement and defense spending, stuff that increases the quality of life of EVERYONE, not just religious(or secularist) groups.

So you are ok with forcing people to pay for things that they do not want to pay for? Then why are you complaining about private enterprise soliciting you? You have the option of saying no, whereas I do not have the option of saying no.

Oh boy, Texas that has a $27bil budget hole and is 49th in per capita spending on its people. And oh yeah, you can't get married if you're gay, or hold public office if you're an atheist. You can have a bankrupt state government AND have your personal freedoms stripped!

The Texas which is chopping things down so that the deficit and debt will be paid off. Yeah, I'm on board with it. The state doesn't grant you freedom.

It isn't MY fault that you're unwilling to spend exorbitant amounts of cash to get away from the problem.

And it's not my problem that solicitors apparently aren't sufficient motivation for you to exercise your liberty. If I don't like something I spend the money to do something about it, which is why I live where I do. I like that TX doesn't put their hand in my paycheck.

I have never, ever, once in this thread said that I will suffer any consequences for saying on the internet that I had a certain amount of skepticism of the existence of God

What about real life?

What I have said is that the God Squad goes out of their way to marginalize through legal means anyone who does not follow their religion and at least one person on this thread has advocated that people should harass people in person at their own homes.

Freedom of speech permits them to harass people in public with their speech. Same right you have. I wouldn't stop you, and I wouldn't stop them.

[Ben Kenobi]

I would make no such assumption.

Just hoping.

Fair enough. I have had significant changes in my personal beliefs in the time that I've been on Poly, so I guess it's reasonable to assume when I've been away, that I might come back significantly different. I've just been busy.

[Kidlicious]

Someone called Hitler a Christian. Why continue the thread any longer?

[giblets]

Someone called Hitler a Christian. Why continue the thread any longer?

Catholic upbringing, so it's very plausible that he was a Christian

[giblets]

The Texas which is chopping things down so that the deficit and debt will be paid off. Yeah, I'm on board with it. The state doesn't grant you freedom.

And it's not my problem that solicitors apparently aren't sufficient motivation for you to exercise your liberty. If I don't like something I spend the money to do something about it, which is why I live where I do. I like that TX doesn't put their hand in my paycheck.

You like that Texas is slashing education spending? Does your idea of 'liberty' involve kids going to crappy schools?