Why do Conservatives love people who break the law?

[Barnabas]

A fetus is not a person, a fetus knows no language, has never thought, has no personality.
Mr Ed if he existed would be a person, while a fetus would not.

What is a fetus is is a creature that is alive, of the species homo sapiens sapiens, that is different from his parents (has his or her own dna), and because he is a fellow member of the human race, even if he is not a person (yet), I oppose abortion.

[Ben Kenobi]

Especially when they claim their opinion is "scientifically proven".

The argument that human life begins at conception ended with the first ivf baby, conceived in a test tube.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, if we define something as a person because it has the potential to become a person,

Not this crap again.

Do you believe that sperm and egg are identical?

[Ben Kenobi]

How is the entity that exists at conception a person by any definition that isn't arbitrary?

The same DNA that you possess today, you also possessed when you were a zygote. The biological definition of the beginning of human existance is at conception.

You might insist that a person can't come from something that is not a person,

You've misunderstood my argument.

Sperm is alive. The ovum is alive, therefore the unborn is alive.

The father is human, the mother is human, therefore the unborn is human.

WRT to legal personhood, either all human beings are persons, or they are not. Arguing that some human beings should not be persons, is no different then the argument of slavery.

but that would either be arbitrarily placed in your definition of person or it would be based on a definition of person that includes zygotes.

The definition is not arbitrary. Saying that all human beings should be considered persons is the only definition that isn't arbitrary.

[Ben Kenobi]

A fetus is not a person, a fetus knows no language, has never thought, has no personality.
Mr Ed if he existed would be a person, while a fetus would not.

What is a fetus is is a creature that is alive, of the species homo sapiens sapiens, that is different from his parents (has his or her own dna), and because he is a fellow member of the human race, even if he is not a person (yet), I oppose abortion.

She is a person. The only thing that changes at birth is the location, from inside the womb to outside.

A person deaf from birth would have no concept of a spoken language. Does that make her less of a person? No. Language acquisition is irrelevant to personhood.

[Ming]

I love how Ben goes to great lengths to keep proving that catholics are indeed leading the way in killing innocent babies since they have more abortions than any other religion. Not bad for a religion that CLAIMS it's against abortion.

[giblets]

The same DNA that you possess today, you also possessed when you were a zygote. The biological definition of the beginning of human existance is at conception.

But why should I think the zygote I came from was a person? Because of genetic similarity? I don't think that makes much sense. Identical twins are different people, aren't they? But their DNA is very similar.

You've misunderstood my argument.

Sperm is alive. The ovum is alive, therefore the unborn is alive.

The father is human, the mother is human, therefore the unborn is human.

WRT to legal personhood, either all human beings are persons, or they are not. Arguing that some human beings should not be persons, is no different then the argument of slavery.

Sperm and ovum are alive, have human DNA and come from humans. Therefore they are human? They're human cells, sure, and an embryo is a cluster of human cells, but I'm not seeing a person.

The definition is not arbitrary. Saying that all human beings should be considered persons is the only definition that isn't arbitrary.

You're arbitrarily deciding that human DNA automatically makes something a person. (unless it's a sperm or egg, that's another arbitration on your part)

[Ben Kenobi]

I love how Ben goes to great lengths to keep proving that catholics are indeed leading the way in killing innocent babies since they have more abortions than any other religion. Not bad for a religion that CLAIMS it's against abortion.

Taking contraception into account?

[Ben Kenobi]

But why should I think the zygote I came from was a person?

You were that zygote at that stage of your life, just as you were once an embryo, etc. That is what human beings look like at that age.

Because of genetic similarity? I don't think that makes much sense.

Not just that. If we were to trace your growth and development it would be readily apparent that this really was you, at your earliest moments.

Sperm and ovum are alive, have human DNA and come from humans. Therefore they are human?

The difference is that the Zygote is no longer sperm or egg, a part of the father or mother, but someone new. The child, the combination of her father and mother.

They're human cells, sure, and an embryo is a cluster of human cells, but I'm not seeing a person.

And you are a somewhat bigger cluster of human cells. this is what growth and development entails.

You're arbitrarily deciding that human DNA automatically makes something a person. (unless it's a sperm or egg, that's another arbitration on your part)

Sperm and egg are different from the zygote. Sperm is a part of your body, the zygote is not. Same with the Ovum. There's nothing arbitrary about it, just science.

[giblets]

You were that zygote at that stage of your life, just as you were once an embryo, etc. That is what human beings look like at that age.

Not just that. If we were to trace your growth and development it would be readily apparent that this really was you, at your earliest moments.

"readily apparent"? I don't think it is. Maybe you think so, because you arbitrarily decided that a person is something with human DNA that comes from a man and a woman.

And you are a somewhat bigger cluster of human cells. this is what growth and development entails.

I'm a clump of cells that is aware, has thoughts and emotions. I'm a person, you're a person, an embryo is not, IMHO.

Sperm and egg are different from the zygote. Sperm is a part of your body, the zygote is not. Same with the Ovum. There's nothing arbitrary about it, just science.

I don't see how personhood is a scientific concept.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't think it is. Maybe you think so, because you arbitrarily decided that a person is something with human DNA that comes from a man and a woman.

That's a pretty good definition. Mind if I use it?

I'm a clump of cells that is aware, has thoughts and emotions. I'm a person, you're a person, an embryo is not, IMHO.

Which is why abortionists recommend anaestetics. Don't leave home without one, kids.

I don't see how personhood is a scientific concept.

Which is why you believe feelings are relevant. I guess slavery was wrong because it made black people feel bad about themselves, not because they were people. Deciding things based on 'feelings' is useless.

[giblets]

That's a pretty good definition. Mind if I use it?

Which is why abortionists recommend anaestetics. Don't leave home without one, kids.

Which is why you believe feelings are relevant. I guess slavery was wrong because it made black people feel bad about themselves, not because they were people. Deciding things based on 'feelings' is useless.

Well since I'm guessing black people did hate being slaves, I don't see how 'feelings' are useless. Most people think happiness is a good thing and suffering is bad, but maybe you don't care if others are suffering.

And I certainly don't doubt that blacks are people. I don't really see how that's relevant to abortion.

Anyway, I think I've made my original point that I think your view is arbitrary and that it's not some undeniable scientific fact. So when you attack others because you think their views are "arbitrary" I personally don't find it very persuasive.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well since I'm guessing black people did hate being slaves, I don't see how 'feelings' are useless. Most people think happiness is a good thing and suffering is bad, but maybe you don't care if others are suffering.

Suffering isn't always bad. Sometimes good things come from suffering. For example, studying and working hard is suffering compared to slacking off and doing nothing.

Treating suffering as evil because it makes you feel bad is not the right reason to oppose slavery. It also means that slavery could be a good thing if people were happier being slaves than free.

Slavery was wrong because it denied a fundamental truth, that all people are created equal. To treat a human being as a thing, an it is wrong.

And I certainly don't doubt that blacks are people. I don't really see how that's relevant to abortion.

Unborn children are a class of persons that you deny are persons, which means it's ok to kill them, ok to use their body parts for stem cell research. Ok to freeze them when you need them later.

Anyway, I think I've made my original point that I think your view is arbitrary and that it's not some undeniable scientific fact.

By handwaving. It is an undeniable fact that human life begins at conception.

So when you attack others because you think their views are "arbitrary" I personally don't find it very persuasive.

Personally, I don't care too much about ripping apart arguments based on "feelings, nothing more than feelings", and use it as justification to kill other people.

Slaveowners used to make that argument too, that black people could never be freed because they were incapable of looking after themselves.

[giblets]

Suffering isn't always bad. Sometimes good things come from suffering. For example, studying and working hard is suffering compared to slacking off and doing nothing.

Studying and working pay off and lead to greater happiness.

Treating suffering as evil because it makes you feel bad is not the right reason to oppose slavery. It also means that slavery could be a good thing if people were happier being slaves than free.

Well, if people wanted to work for others for free I wouldn't see a reason to stop them. If people wanted to live like a slave it wouldn't be necessary to use force to enslave people.

Slavery was wrong because it denied a fundamental truth, that all people are created equal. To treat a human being as a thing, an it is wrong.

Unborn children are a class of persons that you deny are persons, which means it's ok to kill them, ok to use their body parts for stem cell research. Ok to freeze them when you need them later.

According to you. I don't think embryos are people.

By handwaving. It is an undeniable fact that human life begins at conception.

Personhood is the issue, and you're dogmatically insisting that certain types of living cells with human DNA are people.

Personally, I don't care too much about ripping apart arguments based on "feelings, nothing more than feelings", and use it as justification to kill other people.

Slaveowners used to make that argument too, that black people could never be freed because they were incapable of looking after themselves.

I'm not saying feelings justify killing people. I'm saying embryos aren't people.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not saying feelings justify killing people. I'm saying embryos aren't people.

Because they don't have those magical feelings.

Which is why abortionists put them down beforehand.

Real logical there, indeed.