What do you think of hate crimes?

[Al B. Sure!]

And then I link them to examples of them being used on nutter Imams, or Muslim kids out to kill any Christian/Jew kids. And then those people act like they haven't seen me post, or declare that such examples are exceptions that prove a rule they have no figures for.

I've been down this road many times.

You know... why is it that in the US we don't have this problem? We have terrorists gunning to blow things up and crash planes into buildings but we don't have immigrant Muslims mobbing Americans. What are you Europeans doing wrong?

[Kuciwalker]

And then I link them to examples of them being used on nutter Imams, or Muslim kids out to kill any Christian/Jew kids. And then those people act like they haven't seen me post, or declare that such examples are exceptions that prove a rule they have no figures for.

I've been down this road many times.

In theory, there is probably a part of the parameter space where it makes sense to deter "beating him up because he's gay" over "beating him up because I felt like beating him up", etc., but I think it's a very narrow region and I don't feel like we're in it. Unlike other times in our* history, systematic violence against a minority group isn't really condoned anywhere, and I don't think there are that many people who would be deterred by the additional punishment a hate crime conviction would bring.

Also, while the courts are perfectly competent to judge motive, there is a civil liberties concern with introducing to the courtroom what is in practice a political test.

*American

[Ben Kenobi]

And then I link them to examples of them being used on nutter Imams, or Muslim kids out to kill any Christian/Jew kids. And then those people act like they haven't seen me post, or declare that such examples are exceptions that prove a rule they have no figures for.

Man, Laz is going to town.

Personally, I agree that intent is important, but the intent to kill someone because they looked at you funny, and the intent to kill someone because you thought they looked funny, is irrelevant. In both cases the intent to kill is there.

Hate crime laws are redundant and unnecessary. The laws already take intent into account.

[Ben Kenobi]

we don't have immigrant Muslims mobbing Americans. What are you Europeans doing wrong?

Ft. Hood anybody?

Didn't you deny that 9-11 was done by Muslims already, Albert?

[Al B. Sure!]

Ft. Hood anybody?

Didn't you deny that 9-11 was done by Muslims already, Albert?

Again... I said:

You know... why is it that in the US we don't have this problem? We have terrorists gunning to blow things up and crash planes into buildings but we don't have immigrant Muslims mobbing Americans. What are you Europeans doing wrong?

[Elok]

I don't read Ayn Rand, and I think hate crimes are a transparent attempt to wiggle around the first amendment and punish people for having the wrong opinions. If you think the crime is done as an attempt to intimidate the gay/latino/black/whoever community, tack on a terrorism charge, but none of this hate crime rubbish.

As a honky, if some radical follower of Farrakhan's decided to teach the spawn of Yakub a lesson and beat the **** out of me with a crowbar, I say he should be tried on a common assault and battery charge, or whatever the correct neutral charge would be. He can think I'm pure evil and an oppressor by nature, he can't attempt to kill me, or rape me, or vandalize my property. Non-crime + crime =/= bigger crime.

[Elok]

You know... why is it that in the US we don't have this problem? We have terrorists gunning to blow things up and crash planes into buildings but we don't have immigrant Muslims mobbing Americans. What are you Europeans doing wrong?

I believe there are a number of factors at work there. Some of it, IIUC, is economic. Poor Muslim immigrants come to European countries, can't get jobs, and waste away in ghettos for a little while before getting angry and setting cars on fire. Part of it is social; while America is pretty white-bread, we don't have an ethnically defined American culture (outside of Republicanland), so it's easier for immigrants to assimilate. But all this is just what I read--I've never been to Europe. Can I get some European perspectives?

[notyoueither]

Doesn't the US use civil-rights violations as a kicker in prosecutions?

How is that different from hate crimes?

[notyoueither]

I have zero problem with adding additional sanctions when a crime is motivated by race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Stringing up blacks in the 'Old South' was as much an attempt to terrorise a larger group of people as it was to settle a score with an individual. It was a more heinous crime than your run of the mill homicide over a disagreement.

[Al B. Sure!]

How do 'acts of terrorism' and 'hate crimes' differ? Does terrorism necessarily imply a wish to overthrow the government?

[Kuciwalker]

I have zero problem with adding additional sanctions when a crime is motivated by race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Stringing up blacks in the 'Old South' was as much an attempt to terrorise a larger group of people as it was to settle a score with an individual. It was a more heinous crime than your run of the mill homicide over a disagreement.

Yes, that was exactly what I was talking about. The issue is that such conditions no longer exist - there's basically nowhere left where systematic violence against any given minority is condoned.

[Kuciwalker]

How do 'acts of terrorism' and 'hate crimes' differ? Does terrorism necessarily imply a wish to overthrow the government?

It's not obvious that terrorism ought to be a crime distinct from murder, etc., and laws specifically against terrorism often raise similar civil liberties concerns.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Hate crimes should figure into sentencing ala motive but should not be a crime of themselves.

[notyoueither]

Yes, that was exactly what I was talking about. The issue is that such conditions no longer exist - there's basically nowhere left where systematic violence against any given minority is condoned.

Matthew Shepard will rest easier knowing that.

[Kuciwalker]

Would Matthew Shepard's murder have been prevented if we'd had a hate crimes law on the books?