Christianity ruins families.

[Elok]

But then you aren't really interested in justice, merely handouts.

As opposed to the "justice" of kicking millions of people who have done nothing wrong out of their homes, and giving said homes to other people who have done nothing to deserve them?

EDIT: To be fair, maybe you just meant destroying their government, replacing it with foreigners and making them into de facto second-class citizens.

[Ben Kenobi]

I take it you're also in favor of reparations for slavery? If mistreated black people are due recompense (true), then surely their great-grandchildren inherit that claim from the great-grandchildren of the ones who hurt them; mixed-race people should simply write themselves a check in proportion to how black they are, excluding any percentage of their heredity that happens to be Asian (Latinos are part Native American and, therefore, should get a separate check).

The only correct way to do that would be to give a cheque to anyone who can prove that they are a descendent of a slave, not black people, which is why it will never happen. This would also include many white people too, and exclude many black people. But then you aren't really interested in justice, merely handouts.

It would also be a one-time thing, which is also why it would never happen.

If everyone who was a descendent of a slave and only those who could prove that they were descendents, and if they weren't allowed to collect welfare anymore then I would agree to paying them the equivalent of about 50k per family.

[Elok]

Yes, but thankfully, I'm part Scottish and Welsh as well as part French and German. My Celtic blood hereby gives the rest of me rights to live in what is now known as the UK. Sure, the food's bad, but it's a sight better than Russia...

[BeBMan]

Americans will get their continent back too

[Elok]

I take it you're also in favor of reparations for slavery? If mistreated black people are due recompense (true), then surely their great-grandchildren inherit that claim from the great-grandchildren of the ones who hurt them; mixed-race people should simply write themselves a check in proportion to how black they are, excluding any percentage of their heredity that happens to be Asian (Latinos are part Native American and, therefore, should get a separate check).

Also, all British of Germanic descent should live there only on sufferance from the Celts. Ditto France and, in fact, Germany. I'm guessing this leaves all the Germans living somewhere around Russia, or wherever the hell their tribes came from. All this, of course, is excluding the eighth or so of the European population descended in part from Genghis Khan or one of his soldiers; such foreign occupiers should be pushed way the **** back to Mongolia and make a living herding horses. It's called justice

[Ben Kenobi]

was that it wasn't so bad for Christians to try to take it back. He never said they "should" be given back. You seem to think Muslims are morally obligated to hand it over even after all of these years.

Yeah, I do believe they are morally obligated to give it back. If it's not wrong for Christians to go to war to take it back, how is it wrong for it to be returned peacefully?

[Ben Kenobi]

Who exactly are the legal heirs to the Eastern Roman Empire? Greece? Should Turkey belong to Greece now?

That's a good question.

I'd have no problem with it all going to Greece, short of Israel.

[Nikolai]

There are more crazy debaters here, btw.
The thing is that most of you guys agree most of the time with the guys Ben is debating with, and therefore you automaticly always consider Ben to be an idiot and his opponents to be pure sane. (little bit of black-white remark, I know )

It's just two complete different worlds that can never touch, and both worlds never even try to touch by imagining how it would be to be the other guy.

I often see where Ben's coming from, eventhough I disagree with him. (and sometimes I agree, but I would never admit that, b/c you'll all start to yell at me )
I get the idea that many of his opponents don't even see where he comes from or what his point is.

And there's of course always the thing that when someone is all by himself, he'll always start to shout louder.

Anyway, I salute Ben's bravery for continueing to stand up for his opinions in the lion's den.

Best post in this thread, period. I don't always agree with Ben and his debating, although I can see where he's coming from for the most part, but most of the treatment he's given here is below dignity.

[MrFun]

I guess it's time to give all the territory that United States took from Mexico, back to Mexico.

[giblets]

The primary claim I made is that Muslims lands were acquired through conquest, and that they should be given back.

That's what started this whole argument, and why everyone else rather then arguing this point kept changing the topic. Barnabas agrees with the main point I was trying to make.

He doesn't even seem to be suggesting that... his point, if I'm not mistaken, was that it wasn't so bad for Christians to try to take it back. He never said they "should" be given back. You seem to think Muslims are morally obligated to hand it over even after all of these years.

[Elok]

Okay, we'll go along with this just for fun. Who exactly are the legal heirs to the Eastern Roman Empire? Greece? Should Turkey belong to Greece now?

[Ben Kenobi]

Barnabas hasn't claimed the jizyah was equivalent to slavery, the US didn't conquer Native American lands but in fact liberated them, Jews have a right to the holy land, Hawaii became part of the US voluntarily, the crusades were defensive in nature, muslims worship a rock, etc., etc., etc.

He expressed a reasonable view, and when you claim your opinions are identical I'm not buying it.

The primary claim I made is that Muslims lands were acquired through conquest, and that they should be given back.

That's what started this whole argument, and why everyone else rather then arguing this point kept changing the topic. Barnabas agrees with the main point I was trying to make.

[Ben Kenobi]

BK, you claimed that land was "given" to Israel. Who gave it to them? I assume you mean God.

Why in the **** should this be relevant legally?

Never did say that their legal claim was because God gave the land to them. Their legal claim comes from the 700 years that they resided in the land.

This claim is greater than anyone elses.

[David Floyd]

BK, you claimed that land was "given" to Israel. Who gave it to them? I assume you mean God.

Why in the **** should this be relevant legally?

[giblets]

I guess it is unfortunate.

I'm glad to have my opinion shared by someone you respect so greatly as Barnabas.

The opinion is *exactly* the same. Do you not see this?

Barnabas hasn't claimed the jizyah was equivalent to slavery, the US didn't conquer Native American lands but in fact liberated them, Jews have a right to the holy land, Hawaii became part of the US voluntarily, the crusades were defensive in nature, muslims worship a rock, etc., etc., etc.

He expressed a reasonable view, and when you claim your opinions are identical I'm not buying it.