Christianity ruins families.

[OzzyKP]

Atheist actually. And Asher is somewhat right. I started going to church because my girlfriend is a big believer (though the rare good kind of Christian, who loves everyone and is not really interested in condemning people to Hell, though she does believe it exists). I wanted to support her because it was a big thing in her life. So I went a few times and started to realize that I was feeling the Spirit (which is somewhat hard to explain). Where I'd just stand for respect during praise and worship, I felt more and more the presence of God; and found that the people there were so full of love and joy and I wanted that feeling of love towards people. It was so totally unlike other Christians I knew. They were completely loving and accepting, even though they knew I was an atheist (my gf told me not to be shy about my beliefs). So I gradually decided to be open to whatever was there for me.

Basically the difference between Islam and Christianity for me was that I didn't feel the presence of God while praying as a Muslim. I think it is because of the stress on love that true Christianity has. That notion of loving everyone, even your enemy, is so absolutely powerful and the people that try to live for that ideal have such inner joy and peace, that I'm just scratching the surface on.

That was kind of a ramble about how I accepted Jesus Christ and his gospel. Since then, I've been voraciously reading; and not just the Bible, but theological books, especially those touching on the emerging church, which seeks to explain the Living Word in the context of our postmodern culture.

FWIW, my girlfriend put absolutely NO pressure on me to accept Christianity (though apparently her folks were antsy about her dating an atheist when we started going out - they were exceedingly nice however).

Such an awesome story.

Sounds like an awesome church, and totally how it should be. It frustrates me that too many people only see the hypocrites and haters and not the real Christians out there doing it right. I don't think they are all that rare, they just don't attract nationwide controversy every time they open their mouths.

Imran.

And so sorry to hear about your parents. How long has it been since you've talked to them?

[OzzyKP]

to me religion is a massive contradiction, each one of us must decide for ourselves what creator, if any, we believe in, but its still a personal view or interpretation of existence. How do you turn that into a religion? I can understand religions forming around some "eternal truth" or philosophical code like the Golden Rule, but get far beyond that (notice Jesus' criticism of getting bogged down in ritual and forgetting the big picture) and people start disagreeing and the religion fractures into fragments. And it should, religion is a personal thing. Organized religion is an oxy moron

That is very much an anti-religion view of things. Your opinions only make sense if one believes that faith and God and the afterlife are all fairy tales we primitive folk tell ourselves to help us sleep at night.

It'd be like if someone came along and said "ah ha, I have invented the cure for cancer! I have something that could save millions of people! But.. cancer is a very personal thing, so I'm not gonna make a big fuss out of it, and just keep it to myself so as not to trouble anyone."

That person has come across a great, miraculous, life saving gift, and to keep it to oneself is selfish, anti-human, and destructive. It needs to be shared with everyone. Doing that is a logistical nightmare and requires a great deal of time, energy, organization, dedication, money, training, resources, etc. Just like any other human endeavor.

Also, if someone invented the cure for cancer, he'd want to make sure when people reproduced that cure they got it right. Can't just throw any ingredient into the pot or it'll stop being the cure for cancer, it'll just be snake oil. So time needs to go into making sure the truth of how to create this cure, or attain this cure, are set down and passed around accurately.

Obviously when the life saving gift isn't a thing you can hold in your hand but an idea and a way of life, it becomes more difficult to transmit it accurately. Just like in school you have silly jingles and pneumatic devices to remember things like the planets or the oceans or any other bits of information, rituals get set down as ways to remember and stay connected with the bits of information and truth we need. When those rituals become more important than the essential truth they point to, then yes that is obviously a big problem, but that doesn't mean rituals don't have their place.

[giblets]

It'd be like if someone came along and said "ah ha, I have invented the cure for cancer! I have something that could save millions of people! But.. cancer is a very personal thing, so I'm not gonna make a big fuss out of it, and just keep it to myself so as not to trouble anyone."

Religion can't be demonstrated to be true the way a cure for cancer could. And continuing to pester people who have already rejected your religion or your interpretation would just be annoying.

[OzzyKP]

It just depends on how it is done. You certainly wouldn't want to harass someone who firmly isn't interested. But a lot of it is just exposing people to new information or experiences they haven't had before. No pressure or anything. Like Imran's experience. That's the real way to do it. Be a pure example of living your faith and share your life and your experiences with others.

[Ben Kenobi]

pneumatic devices

Did you go to trade school, Ozzy?

[Al B. Sure!]

It just depends on how it is done. You certainly wouldn't want to harass someone who firmly isn't interested. But a lot of it is just exposing people to new information or experiences they haven't had before. No pressure or anything. Like Imran's experience. That's the real way to do it. Be a pure example of living your faith and share your life and your experiences with others.

I think Imran more felt love for the chick and less Agape.

I hate to sound like that but I don't buy an atheist who already rejected what I frankly find to be a more reasonable religion (Islam), would go all Pentecostal Christian (I am aware he is non-denominational but he seemed to indicate the experience happened around Pentecostals. I apologize if I mis-interpreted).

Again, I hate to sound like that because Imran clearly believes in his heart but it just doesn't sound right to me.

[Ben Kenobi]

I hate to sound like that but I don't buy an atheist who already rejected what I frankly find to be a more reasonable religion (Islam), would go all Pentecostal Christian

Why on earth would a muslim appeal to agape? It's a greek concept.

[giblets]

I think Imran more felt love for the chick and less Agape.

I hate to sound like that but I don't buy an atheist who already rejected what I frankly find to be a more reasonable religion (Islam), would go all Pentecostal Christian (I am aware he is non-denominational but he seemed to indicate the experience happened around Pentecostals. I apologize if I mis-interpreted).

Again, I hate to sound like that because Imran clearly believes in his heart but it just doesn't sound right to me.

What do you find more reasonable about it, besides the believers being less likely to think nonbelievers are going to hell?

[Al B. Sure!]

And I do not believe a tolerant or reasonable or good or anything completely positive Christian truly exists for a couple of reasons.

I have rarely observed such people. Religious people are typically very judgmental but also sin considerably. They are extreme in their proselytizing and refuse to even associate with people of other faiths or atheists except to try to convert them or convince them that they are going to hell. They have very little understanding of the religion or the Bible (honestly, can anyone REALLY read the Old Testament... I mean really read it and come out of it not thinking that God is a huge douche? His response to such things as the golden calf [ordering the slaughter of thousands at the hands of one of the tribes of Israel and then punishing everyone with 40 years of wandering in the Sinai] is bizarre for a supposedly merciful God but is standard operating procedure for the OT God).

The problem with Christianity is that it has two opposing beliefs... peace and love for your brother man and intolerant conversion or else crap.

The problem is that, in my view, the dumb prejudiced Christians are actually getting half of the message of the faith completely right. The 'liberal' Christians, meanwhile, who are so tolerant and deemed as good by some of you posters, have actually bastardized the faith because they are not spreading God's Word and the fact that salvation can only be had through acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They are COMPELLED by God to spread the faith, yet they do such things as say there are many ways to God, etc. NO! There is only Jesus Christ!

I'm sorry but those Christians are NOT Christians.

[SlowwHand]

Most Christians would admit they're not perfect. If they don't, they're not really Christian.

[OzzyKP]

Did you go to trade school, Ozzy?

Oops!

[Ben Kenobi]

I have rarely observed such people. Religious people are typically very judgmental but also sin considerably.

How do you know what sin is?

They are extreme in their proselytizing and refuse to even associate with people of other faiths or atheists except to try to convert them or convince them that they are going to hell.

Really. You should try asking around wherever you work Albert. You'd be surprised. Each of us have missions of own own. Some are called to be missionaries, but most of us have other callings.

They have very little understanding of the religion or the Bible

How so?

(honestly, can anyone REALLY read the Old Testament... I mean really read it and come out of it not thinking that God is a huge douche? His response to such things as the golden calf [ordering the slaughter of thousands at the hands of one of the tribes of Israel and then punishing everyone with 40 years of wandering in the Sinai] is bizarre for a supposedly merciful God but is standard operating procedure for the OT God).

That's what idolatry is. Did you read that entire passage of the golden Calf? God was giving the laws to Moses on Sinai, and in the time it took for him to climb up and down, they had started an idol of a calf and worshipping it. They they proceeded to have an orgy. Moses comes down with the tablets of the Law of God, and sees his people, Israel, set aside by God and rescued from Egypt, defiling themselves through calf worship.

This is why he made them wander through the desert until the generation that had defiled themselves had died away. All except Caleb who had told the truth in Israel.

The problem with Christianity is that it has two opposing beliefs... peace and love for your brother man and intolerant conversion or else crap.

Conversion or else, what? Eternal damnation in hell? Do we kill other people who fall away from the faith. Do we force people to worship God as we do? No. Conversion is an act of the will. It must be freely chosen. Peace and love of our fellow man is not optional.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oops!

Just remember, pneumos is spirit and mnemos is mind.

[OzzyKP]

And I do not believe a tolerant or reasonable or good or anything completely positive Christian truly exists for a couple of reasons.

I have rarely observed such people. Religious people are typically very judgmental but also sin considerably. They are extreme in their proselytizing and refuse to even associate with people of other faiths or atheists except to try to convert them or convince them that they are going to hell. They have very little understanding of the religion or the Bible

Sounds *exactly* like every single atheist I've ever known. Out of all the people I've ever met (Jews, Muslims, Christians, liberals, conservatives, etc) atheists are hands down the most hateful of the bunch. So, by your logic atheism = hatred & intolerance.

I could also, but your same logic, conclude that if I ever met an atheist who *wasn't* full of hate that he must not *really* be an atheist.

But of course I'm not an idiot, so I don't jump to such short-sighted conclusions.

[Al B. Sure!]

Really. You should try asking around wherever you work Albert. You'd be surprised. Each of us have missions of own own. Some are called to be missionaries, but most of us have other callings.

No. You are only called to serve God's will and worship him:

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.


For you to claim that you can determine your own means of serving God... is that humility?

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself, it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

That's what idolatry is. Did you read that entire passage of the golden Calf? God was giving the laws to Moses on Sinai, and in the time it took for him to climb up and down, they had started an idol of a calf and worshipping it. They they proceeded to have an orgy. Moses comes down with the tablets of the Law of God, and sees his people, Israel, set aside by God and rescued from Egypt, defiling themselves through calf worship.

Note the sequence of events... the golden calf was built and worshiped while Moses was receiving the Commandments. The people of Israeli had not yet received the prohibition against idolatry yet they were punished for a crime they did not yet know was a crime!

Do we kill other people who fall away from the faith. Do we force people to worship God as we do?

yes.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Or take Aquinas in Summa Theologica:
I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.