Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you Christians are claiming marriage now?

It's only been recently that people have used the term 'marriage' to apply to something other than the sacrament. Personally, if you believe that marriage is a contract and that it can and should be dissolved when either party is unsatisfied, then yes, what you believe in is better termed as a civil union.

Marriage, as a sacrament does not change. It is for life. You can no more be 'unmarried' than you can be 'unbaptised'. It's radically different.

[Ben Kenobi]

I should follow Guy's post, but this idiocy needs to be contended with. In Rome, woman could also divorce their husbands after Rome entered what is considered the "classical age".

So was Christianity.

Christianity is an ancient religion.

The norm for non-Christian cultures was quite different. Reciprocity simply didn't exist as it does in Christian marriage, nor is the concept that it is both an exclusive bond severed only by death.

[fetustoast]

Be quiet

[Thoth]

So was Christianity.

Christianity is an ancient religion.

The norm for non-Christian cultures was quite different. Reciprocity simply didn't exist as it does in Christian marriage, nor is the concept that it is both an exclusive bond severed only by death.

Horse**** on all counts Mr. Johnnycomelately.

[Ben Kenobi]

The same social conservatives who would not want a gay ceremony in their own church do not want gays to marry no matter where the ceremony takes place, religious, civil, common law, or in front of a goat. Not all of them are religious, although I would guess that many or most are.

I hope you aren't including me among those people.

If gay people want to join thmselves, that's up to them. Anyone can call themselves whatever they want to these days.

Just don't call yourselves Christian and we'll get along fine.

[fetustoast]

Silence from you we want

[Wiglaf]

I am good at recognizing an Asher DL (excellent gaydar) and you are an Asher DL

[Ben Kenobi]

Horse**** on all counts Mr. Johnnycomelately.

That Christianity is an ancient religion?

That it teaches that marriage is for life?

That the norm among non-Christian societies deviates in some way from one or the other principle?

[Asher]

I am good at recognizing an Asher DL (excellent gaydar) and you are an Asher DL

fetustoast speaks for all of us

^^ Phrase I never thought I'd say

[Wiglaf]

Fetustoast

[Zevico]

Christianity is an ancient religion.

Yes, but it doesn't have quite the same cool factor as Tao.

[Riesstiu IV]

What kind of spread do you put on fetustoast?

[Thoth]

That Christianity is an ancient religion?

You and your ilk have only been around for 2k years.


Noobs.

[Asher]

What kind of spread do you put of fetustoast?

eagle

[Ben Kenobi]

And this is not directed only to you, but to both camps.
Just get over it. Discuss it rationally. Try to undertand the other party. Place yourself into his position.

Cybershy, I didn't start this thread.

The thread was started with my name in the title, specifically challenging me on gay marriage.

I have no intent to aggravate or annoy the gay posters here, but I can and will respond when challenged.

The first thing I notice here is that you guys are totally not able to understand each other. Understand how it is when you're a believer, God is very important to you, how you want to serve him as the key purpose of your life, and how you are hurt when he is being insulted.

Cyber, I haven't always been a believer. I understand his position and where he is coming from, because I've been there myself. Please understand this. Before I was a christian I believed that gay marriage was a good thing because then they could get married and they would suffer less. I came to understand that I did not truly understand what Christian marriage was all about and why the suffering would not be less, but more.

Undestand how it is to be gay, when it's a key element of your identity. How it decides much for your life, regarding chosing a partner and running a household with another man. How it is to find love and comfort.

I do understand, which is why if asked I would tell people to run, not walk the other way. I've seen it, and the not so 'gay' parts of it which are a consequence. Yes, truth hurts, but so does sin. Am I to suggest that it's all sunshine and lollipops, when that is not the truth.

Imagine how difficult it must be if you're mocked b/c you're gay or b/c you're a believer. How it is when a key element of your identity is casted away as bs or wrong or stupid or backwards or evil.

Part of our responsibilities as believers is to stand up for the truth and to reject sin. Sodomy is sinful. It's right there in the bible among many other things that these folks will accept wholeheartedly. We don't really have a choice here Cybershy. It's like if someone came to you and said that he wanted to kill someone, is the best thing for him to tell him that it's ok if he feels that way and that he should engage in his desires? No.

And I also think that it's short sighted to expect people to live up to you norms if they don't even share you values.

And I think it's not christian to discuss the supposed sin without caring about the supposed sinner.

Define 'caring'. Does that include 'accept correction as discipline?'