Left and Right, Here and There

[Ecofarm]

Marijuana smokers across the America lit up in public parks, outside statehouses and in the posh confines of a Hummer parked outside a pot gardening superstore to observe the movement's annual 'high holiday' yesterday.

Those who weren't within whiffing distance of a college campus or a reggae concert may not have realised that Tuesday was '4/20', the celebration-***-mass civil disobedience derived from '420' - insider shorthand for cannabis consumption.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1267696/National-weed-day-2010-US-4-20-pot-protesters-light-April-20th.html#ixzz0loOV3LVh

[Dinner]

You are missing the point.

Mongols also devastated the Islamic world but they didn't really opress Islam per se as far as I recall
(thou a Mongol general did have a soft spot for Christianity I recall properly causing Medeival Europeans to come up with all sorts of funny fanfic about the Mongols and Europeans uniting to destroy the Arab states)


Saying someone devastated Orthodox Russia or Confucian China dosen't really mean they represt Orthodoxy or Confucianism.

I'd say they did even more damage in the Muslim world (especially the Arab world) as the Arabs rebelled several times and Khan even went so far as to behead the entire population of Baghdad (the old capital of the Muslim Caliphate) putting the skulls in a giant pyramid and ordering the entire city burned and destroyed including having all stones and bricks torn down to ground level. He even tore up the irrigation systems just to make it harder to rebuild.

You could say he really didn't like people who rebelled.

[ricketyclik]

It strikes me that the economic "freedom" in the US comes at the expense of individuals' rights (to such things as clean air and water, not having their wilderness developed, freedom from constant advertising).

[Ecofarm]

And it strikes conservatives that social "freedom" in the US comes at the expense of individual's rights (such as clean television, not having our children subject to immoral conduct, freedom from crimes by addicts).

Everyone has their excuses for authoritarianism, I have a few of my own; however, let's not attribute our tendency of telling others what is best for everyone to quantifiable altruism just yet.

[Saras]

I'm still to be presented with conclusive evidence of material differences in terms of business regulations USA vs EU (which is not 100% homogenous in that respect). In fact, I suspect the US is way more regulated in some areas. Since the only area I could say I understand more than laymen is securities & M&A, just compare pure EU-only IPO prospectuses (no Reg.S or rule 144A) with a fully fledged US public offering prospectus. I mean, "Notice to New Hampshire residents" WTF?

[Ecofarm]

One easy way of gauging government interference in the private sector is to examine the percent of GDP that is spent by the government as opposed to the free market. Merely by government being a big competitor, business is regulated.

Ratio public expenditure on GDP by country in Europe, according to the most recent Eurostat data. This map will by updated as much as possible. Legend : maroon > 55%, red 50-55%, orange 45-50%, yellow 40-45%, green 35-40%, blue 30-35%, purple < 30% (not presently used).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending

The US would be blue (~35%). If the US had military expenditures similar to an EU average, we'd be ~30%.


Another way is to examine other macro factors such as taxation and welfare requirements that are shifted to businesses. Micro-factors, such as a clause in a specific place and instance, are anecdotal.

[Felch]

It strikes me that the economic "freedom" in the US comes at the expense of individuals' rights (to such things as clean air and water, not having their wilderness developed, freedom from constant advertising).

WTF? I've got hard water, but that's geology not the government's fault. My only complaint about the air quality is the pollen count. There are multiple regional parks within fifteen minutes of my house, and I don't even know what you mean by "constant advertising."

Seems to me like you've got a warped perception of America.

[Dauphin]

WTF? I've got hard water, but that's geology not the government's fault. My only complaint about the air quality is the pollen count. There are multiple regional parks within fifteen minutes of my house, and I don't even know what you mean by "constant advertising."

Seems to me like you've got a warped perception of America.

I find it interesting that you apply it immediately to your personal circumstances and not consider others, which is what he was getting at. He's effectively saying economic activity, which is promoted by economic freedom, leads to externalities such as pollution.

On the flip side I think that a lot of economic freedoms are individual freedoms.

[giblets]

I find it interesting that some people prefer no evidence to anecdotal evidence...

[Jon Miller]

There are multiple regional parks within fifteen minutes of my house,

Seems to me like you've got a warped perception of America.

I don't think there are any wildnerness that is closer than 3 hours from DC, and you probably have to go much closer.

On the other hand, I would probably say many/most EU countries have none.

JM

[Dauphin]

I find it interesting that some people prefer no evidence to anecdotal evidence...

So do I. But if you are implying something about me, you're making no sense.

[giblets]

So do I. But if you are implying something about me, you're making no sense.

Ricketyclik was saying that America fails to counter externalities in the name of "freedom", or something along those lines, but didn't back it up with evidence. So when Felch countered with his personal experience, he had more evidence... if America isn't a polluted wasteland why say that Americans' conception of "economic freedom" disregards externalities?

[Dauphin]

Ricketyclik was saying that America fails to counter externalities in the name of "freedom", or something along those lines, but didn't back it up with evidence. So when Felch countered with his personal experience, he had more evidence... if America isn't a polluted wasteland why say that Americans' conception of "economic freedom" disregards externalities?

I didn't say it disregards them, rather that it indirectly promoted them and I have plenty of 'evidence' to work with outside what has been mentioned. As an example the US is the largest producer of greenhouse gases (or thereabouts) and complains that reducing such emissions is a limit on economic freedom.

Of course, I digress from the original point, which I said I disagreed with in the first place - for different reasons.

[Drake Tungsten]

As an example the US is the largest producer of greenhouse gases (or thereabouts) and complains that reducing such emissions is a limit on economic freedom.

One would naturally expect the world's largest economy to also be the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases. In actual fact, however, China passed the U.S. as the world's largest emitter of carbon dioxide a few years ago.

[Robert]

I've spent a week or so in Amsterdam, pure holiday. I've also been to Christiania (Kopenhagen) a dozen or so times, where it is also not technically legal (I was there once during a 'raid').

I live in the Netherlands and work in Amsterdam. (for whatever reason, Amsterdam is no difference then the rest of Holland).
And having pot as a particular is not officially illegal.

You cite something that's about selling/trading pot.
Like I said, having it is officially legal. Trading it is not, though it is tollerated.

It's as with downloading. In The Netherlands it's not against the law to download software/music/etc. It is illegal though to offer it for download.