Left and Right, Here and There

[Robert]

Christians in europe do not have a shared political opinion, apart from 'christian issues'.
There are christians among left-wing parties and among right-wing parties.

Which makes sence, christianity is not a political system.
The christian-union overhere always speaks about "christian-socialism" which irritates me as a christian. You can't base economical politics or social politics on christianity. People should not think that their political ideas are supported by Christ.

The dutch CDA (christian democratic) is centrist as well.

[Dauphin]

The Tories, meanwhile, want the government to get the hell out of everything and have citizens do their own work. Sounds pretty standard GOP, only without tax cuts for the rich.

Tories would never get rid of the NHS. May be a case of 'when you got it, you can't get rid of it' - but that plank is a big difference between the UK and the US "right". Given that the defence budget costs 40% of the NHS, you can see it's a big distinction.

[Elok]

Yeah, I oversimplified there. I saw that all three parties in Britain are highly protective of the NHS. Thanks for all the answers, guys, this is very interesting!

WRT Obama's health plan: my own objection to it is largely budget-based. I believe we need to rid ourselves of our tendency to spend money we don't have, period. I think it might very well be nice to get healthcare reform; I understand U.S. healthcare is worse than just about any other Western country's despite our spending far more on it. I just think we need to wait until we can pay for it. And it seems the bill itself is a pretty lousy halfway measure due to all the compromises they made to get it through. The objections of others, of course, vary wildly.

Socialism: a somewhat overused and misused word, I know. I suppose I use it in two senses--that some of your governments have nationalized certain industries, and that you have high, leveling income taxes used to support strong social programs. That's my hazy recollection from HS government class. American opinions on the word are still strongly influenced by the long Cold War, which is why the GOP still use it, with varying success, as a word similar in tone to "treason." Plus American culture tends to put a strong emphasis on self-reliance and personal freedom, both of which are supposed to be undermined by a larger state.

Now, about hard nationalism and xenophobia in politics: over here, I think it's fair to say that if our political Right doesn't have a monopoly on it, it at least has a big share of the market. You don't hear too many Democrats agitating about immigrants ruining the American way of life with their wicked fajitas and pinatas. And Islam-bashing, while not as bad as it might be due to our fanatic reverence for the First Amendment, seems more popular among the GOP as well. Is it the same in Europe? I'm thinking of Sarkozy--isn't he part of the Socialist party?--and the headscarf ban supported by talk of "preserving French culture." I know Le Pen is in France's hard right; I don't know about that Geert fellow in the Dutch legislature.

[Wezil]

We have left (socialist) - NDP (never elected to govern)

Centre-left - Liberals

Centre-right - Conservatives

Feathernesters - BQ (can't govern as they only run in one province)

Our "centre" is to the left of you.


edit - We also have the Green Party but despite everyone and their dog claiming to be an "environmentalist" these days, they can't get the party leader elected.

[BeBMan]

Sarkozy was in the gaullist UMP before becoming pres, they count as conservative.

As for nationalism and xenophobia, a rather moderate form of national pride and flag-waving has made a certain comeback in Hermania after 1990, and would maybe fall under 'patriotism' in the US, but outright xenophobia is usually a big Nono here for most mainstream politicians. There were/are some examples for such positions in the conservative part of the CDU, but usually such stuff happens mostly at the far-right side (which stands here often for 'neo-nazi'). On the left side some criticism towards Israel's policy vs. the Palestinians is so broad-sweeping and hysteric that it can count as anti-semitic, but it's not the mainstream either.

People like the Dutch Geert Wilders or the earlier Austrian Haider are usually described as 'right-wing populist' in the Kraut media, which means depending on the POV of the source sometimes 'fascist', sometimes (in case of the Dutch guy) 'Islam-critic' and sometimes 'charismatic guy with simplistic views on stuff offering simplistic answers for probs'. They are a relatively new phenomenon and IMO seem to live mainly from the failure of mainstream politics to handle certain issues (like immigration/integration).

[Robert]

Geert Wilders is right wing if it concerns Islam, but not if it's about other issues.

[Ecofarm]

The US is more US-conservative (read: liberal) than Europe economically (lower taxes, less business regulation). The US is also more liberal socially (gun laws, free speech). We are less liberal than Europe on gay rights; other than that, we allow greater social freedom.

This whole idea that the US is some stuffy old fart who never wants change and Europe is some Disney Land of personal freedoms is absolute BS. Europe is very authoritarian economically and is more authoritarian than the US on most social issues. This image of the US being ultra-conservative comes from 3 sources, mainly: lower taxes and regulations economically (as opposed to a nanny state), gay rights and capital punishment; however, this misses the forest for the trees.

[C0ckney]

just gay rights eco? what about drug policy, criminal justice, family policies, the welfare state (which is obviously an economic and social issue), and so on?

[Ecofarm]

Drug policy? We have as many places that pot is legal as Europe does. Note: pot is not technically legal in Amsterdam, and I've found that most of Europe is far more critical of smoking weed than the US (having lived there a couple years). This is especially true in Sweden, where pot is often viewed in the same light as coke.

Criminal justice? Death penalty, already addressed. Length of sentences is hardly a social freedom issue, but you have a minor point there.

Family policies? Do not lump nanny state economic authoritarianism into "social freedoms", m'kay?

Welfare state? I've already covered that under economics. High levels of taxation and regulation are authoritative.

[giblets]

Allowing the poor to visit a doctor is AUTHORITARIAN

[Barnabas]

Christian democrats are basically moderate.

In the USA they would be between dems and reps, more like dems in economic and welfare stuff, and more like republicans in gay marriage/abortion social stuff

[Ecofarm]

Allowing the poor to visit a doctor is AUTHORITARIAN

They are already allowed to, that freedom exists. Forcing others to pay for it is authoritarian.


Look people, I hate it when conservatives give me this "we are authoritative [gay rights, legalization, etc] ONLY BECAUSE IT MAKES EVERYONE MORE FREE!!11!!"

I don't need to hear that sht from "liberals".


You can have all the excuses in the world, but if you are taking my stuff and telling me what I gotta do then you are being authoritative. I'm not an idiot, I can tell when people are bossing me around.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm not an idiot

I dispute this.

[Ecofarm]

I already know you are an empty troll. You have no power.

[C0ckney]

Drug policy? We have as many places that pot is legal as Europe does. Note: pot is not technically legal in Amsterdam, and I've found that most of Europe is far more critical of smoking weed than the US (having lived there a couple years). This is especially true in Sweden, where pot is often viewed in the same light as coke.

i wasn't talking about just pot, but all drugs. if i'd meant just pot, i would have said so. you have the whole war on drugs thing going on. have you heard about portugal? every drug is legal to use (although not to sell), which is about the most liberal place on the planet wrt drugs i think.

Criminal justice? Death penalty, already addressed. Length of sentences is hardly a social freedom issue, but you have a minor point there.

you mean sneakily added in after i made my post

and it's not just what you mention either, you have to look at the numbers of prisoners in gaol too. the US has the highest number of prisoners per capita of any country (753 per 100,000), the highest european union countries are latvia and estonia (339 per 100,000) and the highest western eurpean country is spain (144 per 100,000). england and wales have 142 per 100,000 and we lock up far too many people.

Family policies? Do not lump nanny state economic authoritarianism into "social freedoms", m'kay?

Welfare state? I've already covered that under economics. High levels of taxation and regulation are authoritative.

i think you need to learn what social policy is to be honest. almost everything a government does has an economic effect, but that doesn't change the fact that things like maternity leave or unemployment benefit are essentially social in nature.