Left and Right, Here and There

[Ecofarm]

i wasn't talking about just pot, but all drugs. if i'd meant just pot, i would have said so. you have the whole war on drugs thing going on. have you heard about portugal? every drug is legal to use (although not to sell), which is about the most liberal place on the planet wrt drugs i think.

I don't believe that for one second. If it were real, people would be smoking and snorting in the streets and restaurants. If anything, it's a legal gimmick. The 'war on drugs' exists in Europe as much as it does the US. Spare me the BS legal gimmick exception to Europe's persecution of drug users. What's next, you claim that Europe doesn't subsidize farmers?

and it's not just what you mention either, you have to look at the numbers of prisoners in gaol too. the US has the highest number of prisoners per capita of any country (753 per 100,000), the highest european union countries are latvia and estonia (339 per 100,000) and the highest western eurpean country is spain (144 per 100,000). england and wales have 142 per 100,000 and we lock up far too many people.

These numbers mean little to nothing. With 12,000,000 illegal immigrants and better law enforcement, much of those numbers are meaningless. Your argument here is akin to making a life-span argument without noting descrepencies in parameters of child mortality.

i think you need to learn what social policy is to be honest. almost everything a government does has an economic effect, but that doesn't change the fact that things like maternity leave or unemployment benefit are essentially social in nature.

Trying to mix economic and social issues, at a sophomoric level, does not help to clarify the argument or arrive at any meaningful conclusions. Economically you assume what is best for people, and force it on them - no different than social conservatives.

Do you really think I want to sit around listening to the fundie inverse of "anti-drug policy is not a social issue, it is about keeping us all rich" BS? And I suppose being anti-gay rights is actually being pro-economic development... right? :rollie eyes:

[C0ckney]

you don't believe me about portugal? well go and look it up then fool. linky

as for the rest of your post. **** you for making me agree with krazyhorse.

[Ecofarm]

Decriminalized does not mean "legal". For not knowing that, you are an idiot.

And they only addressed one side, so that people could get clean needles. Our government gives away clean needles without any BS legislation.

And...

"Now instead of being put into prison, addicts are going to treatment centers and they're learning how to control their drug usage or getting off drugs entirely," report author Glenn Greenwald, a former New York State constitutional litigator, said during a press briefing at Cato last week.

I call BS on that.

[Robert]

Note: pot is not technically legal in Amsterdam

It is technically legal in Amsterdam (and the rest of Holland).
It's not technically legal to sell it, but everybody is free to have it.

[Ecofarm]

although technically illegal under still valid Opium Act (dating from 1919, cannabis added as drug in 1950), is widely tolerated provided that it happens in a limited, controlled way (in a coffee shop, small portions, 5 grams maximum transaction, not many portions on stock, sale only to adults, no minors on the premises, no advertisement of drugs, the local municipality did not give the order to close the coffee shop).

http://www.amsterdam.info/drugs/

I've spent a week or so in Amsterdam, pure holiday. I've also been to Christiania (Kopenhagen) a dozen or so times, where it is also not technically legal (I was there once during a 'raid').


First of all, kids, we need to realize that "decriminalized" does not = "legal"; in Portugal they send your ass to a clinic instead of jail, or charge fines (like in the UK).

have you heard about portugal? every drug is legal to use

Personal consumption of cannabis is limited at 2.5 grams per day and 0.5 grams per day of hashish. One may possess no more than 10 daily doses, otherwise it may be categorized as trafficking. The consumption still has a penalty and fine. Cultivation however, is still completely illegal and cultivation of even one plant is assumed to indicate involvement with trafficking. Possession of seeds is also illegal and despite there being several "head shops" or "grow shops" in Portugal, they too are forbidden to market the cannabis seeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis#Portugal

That's not "legal".

as for the rest of your post. **** you for making me agree with krazyhorse.

Who's the idiot now?

[MrFun]

It's not technically legal to sell it, but everybody is free to have it.

Right, this makes sense.

[C0ckney]

i said legal to use, not to sell, what exactly do you think that means? idiot.

also, i see you have once again changed your previous post after i have replied to it, so,

These numbers mean little to nothing. With 12,000,000 illegal immigrants and better law enforcement, much of those numbers are meaningless. Your argument here is akin to making a life-span argument without noting descrepencies in parameters of child mortality.

please explain why these numbers mean nothing. please explain why you cannot compare the US numbers with other western countries. what you have said here is such bull**** it defies belief, please explain to me how illegal immigrants (of course there are none of those in europe!) and 'better law enforcement' can account for incarceration rate which is 6 times that of western european nations.

or you could always try being intellectually honest and admit that the US locks up more people because its criminal justice policies make it so.

Trying to mix economic and social issues, at a sophomoric level, does not help to clarify the argument or arrive at any meaningful conclusions. Economically you assume what is best for people, and force it on them - no different than social conservatives.

what are you babbling on about? let me give you an example. a country may have a policy whereby mothers are given time off work to have their babies and be able to go back to the same job they were in before. clearly this is a social policy, designed to give women more freedom to choose when to have children, safe in the knowledge that they will be able to return to their jobs after a certain period of time. obviously however, this policy will have an economic effect as well. this really is not a difficult concept.

Do you really think I want to sit around listening to the fundie inverse of "anti-drug policy is not a social issue, it is about keeping us all rich" BS? And I suppose being anti-gay rights is actually being pro-economic development... right? :rollie eyes:

and who said that? oh that's right, no one, you idiot.

[Dauphin]

i said legal to use, not to sell, what exactly do you think that means? idiot.

What is consumption, if not "use"?

[C0ckney]

oh yeah, i see what you mean. yes i got the portugal thing slightly wrong

i've actually posted about portugal before, so the previous posts were from memory. what happens if you get caught with a small amount is that you get put before a committee and they then decide whether you have a drug problem or not, if not you can be sent on your way, but if they consider you to have problem then treatment or a small fine is an option.

[Dauphin]

It appears from the link you provided that it's a non-custodial offence. About as illegal as parking in the wrong place and receiving a fine.

[C0ckney]

nevertheless, it is a far more liberal (and sensible) attitude to drugs than you would find in the US, or sadly, the UK.

[Ecofarm]

Medicinal use of the plant is already legal in a growing amount of countries, including Australia, Belgium, Canada, the Netherlands, and 13 states of the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis

Also note, California (almost bigger than any Euro country, right?)...

Dec. 15 (Bloomberg) -- A ballot initiative to legalize recreational marijuana use in California has received enough signatures to place it before voters next year, organizers said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aKNQlqjXCQ3w

Are any Euro countries voting on recreational use this year?

[Dinner]

We're voting in November to legalize MJ for recreational use in California. That still leaves the problem with the Feds but a case might be made that if a state wants to legalize something with its own borders then the Fed can't do anything about it since it isn't interstate commerce. I'm not a lawyer though.

[Ecofarm]

So as long as CA is the only one, then it is not interstate? haha


There's probably an inter-country clause somewhere. The interstate commerce clause and the 16th amendment should both be repealed on the basis of abuse alone.

[Heraclitus]

No, that was "the Communists." IIRC Ghengis Khan was pretty good about religious freedom.

Well you don't really need to opress Orthodox religion to devastate a Orthodox country.


Brutal conquest and supression of dissent work pretty well too wouldn't you agree?