Left and Right, Here and There

[MrFun]

Sometimes some Apolyton posters tempt me to go over to the dark side and hate human beings.

[Hauldren Collider]

Second issue, the government certainly does have the power to own money. This is a basic fact that you fail to understand. In fact, the government really owns all of your income. The only income that you get to keep is what they say you can keep. You have no right to any of it.

What is this I don't even

This is just wrong, I mean like, not even wrong in the sense that the evidence is stacked against you, I mean the 2+2=5 or elephants are a kind of fish sort of wrong.

[Kuciwalker]

No, he's perfectly correct. The right to property is only a means to an end, not a good in itself.

[Heraclitus]

No, he's perfectly correct. The right to property is only a means to an end, not a good in itself.

Well there are some people who consider private property a value.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes but they are wrong.

[Heraclitus]

Yes but they are wrong.

I would tend to agree with you. But in general I tought that we can't really make any objective appraisals of values. Sure some might have less survival value than others or some might suggest action that is against the law but can we really call anyone who espouses them wrong in any serius way?

[Kidlicious]

What is this I don't even

This is just wrong, I mean like, not even wrong in the sense that the evidence is stacked against you, I mean the 2+2=5 or elephants are a kind of fish sort of wrong.

Whatever

[Ecofarm]

But in general I tought that we can't really make any objective appraisals of values. Sure some might have less survival value than others or some might suggest action that is against the law but can we really call anyone who espouses them wrong in any serius way?

Yes. Just because something is a "value" does not make it unassailable.


Property rights as a value is not really in question. Many a great mind considers them such and so they are coded deeply into the best governments. Property rights represent individual ownership, freedom in a real and tangible sense. It's hard to believe someone would question that, even before early adolescence we've learned the value of being able to say "mine".


The only rationale I can imagine for disregarding such... is a desire to escape responsibility via "nothing is mine".

[Kidlicious]

Let me put it to you more simply. If you don't control something you don't own it. The government controls your income. You only control as much of it as they say you can.

[epmd]

Let me put it to you more simply. If you don't control something you don't own it. The government controls your income. You only control as much of it as they say you can.

No... Your employer controls your income...

[Kidlicious]

No... Your employer controls your income...

So your boss gives you a raise because your taxes increased?

[epmd]

Nah, it's usually the other way around thanks to our progressive tax system.

[Hauldren Collider]

Not precisely, epmd. Rather, the fact that the government taxes "the employer" with FICA tax and other taxes causes you to have your pay "reduced". The 7.5% or so of FICA that your employer pays is obviously just taken out of your paycheck but conveniently hidden behind a tree.

[Heraclitus]

Yes. Just because something is a "value" does not make it unassailable.

I'm not saying I won't debate or perhaps even condem certain values that conflict with my own but...


do you see the philosophical deeper dilema? A value is good in itself. It is something one supports regardles if it has or dosen't have any tangible benefit or even rationale. How can anyone come up with objective criticism for them? All one can do is say in increasingly fancy ways "your values are stupid because they conflict with my values and are impractical or bad for you anyway".



Someone might find family a value, someone else the pursuit of happiness, someone else might consider turning the all the matter in the universe into paperclips their supreme purpose of being, ect.

[Heraclitus]

Let me put it to you more simply. If you don't control something you don't own it. The government controls your income. You only control as much of it as they say you can.

The goverment also owns all children.


Edit: To make this clear, this isn't a joke. Kid is right. I don't know however if he realizes that in a land of anarchy a well armed thug would also control all your income and your children. A man is only in possesion of himself in as much as he manages to abstain from contact with his fellow man. And like Aristotel said, to live in that way one must be either a beast or a god.


In any case the mob also controls part of your income in low trust societies since you need to pay them protection money. The state owns more of you proportionatley to how thourugh their monopoly on violence is.