Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[MOBIUS]

So, basically what I'm getting out of this is that DanS and Ben Kenobi think that paedophilia is ok...

[Ming]

it's not the religion, atheist can also be pedophiles

True enough... but atheists don't have a support group in place that helps protect them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I didn't realize the Catholic Church had alter girls now. After all, if boys and girls are in the same vunerable position according to Ben...

[rah]

I thought I saw somewhere that there some places have them now, (not sure if it was RCC) but back in 60s-70s that weren't any that I knew about.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The Pope of a modern faith should not be a leader of a state; he is a leader of a faith.

How are those mutually exclusive? I don't understand what the Pope being a leader of faith has to do with the soveriegnty of his state.

[Asher]

How are those mutually exclusive? I don't understand what the Pope being a leader of faith has to do with the soveriegnty of his state.

The point is a faith is not a state.

[Elok]

I can see two sides of it. On the one hand, Ben's claim that the Pope and church are somehow immune to prosecution, or should be, is ridiculous. On the other, I can't help thinking how nice it would be if our own EP had his own little enclave in Istanbul where they couldn't, for example, shut down his seminaries because he pushed too hard for Greek interests in Cyprus. But I suppose that's just the Turkish state being dickish and has relatively little to do with statehood.

[ColdWizard]

[...]Brady said it was the responsibility of his diocesan bishop, as well as the leader of Smyth's separate Catholic order of priests, to tell police. But he said the church didn't do this because of "a culture of silence about this, a culture of secrecy."

"Yes, I knew that these were crimes," Brady said. "But I did not feel that it was my responsibility to denounce the actions of Brendan Smyth to the police. Now I know with hindsight that I should have done more, but I thought at the time I was doing what I was required to do."

Smyth abused at least 90 children in Ireland, Britain and in U.S. parishes in Rhode Island and North Dakota from 1948 to 1993.

His Irish religious order, the Norbertines, gave him sanctuary in the Republic of Ireland in 1991 after one Belfast family told Northern Ireland police he had molested four of the family's children.

After his delayed 1994 arrest and extradition north, Smyth spent three years in a Northern Ireland prison. In 1997 he pleaded guilty to 74 counts of sexually abusing 20 boys and girls between 1958 and 1993 in the Republic of Ireland. He died of a heart attack in an Irish military prison one month into his 12-year sentence.

Several of Smyth's Irish and American victims said Monday they couldn't believe that Brady had known since 1975 about Smyth's pedophilia.[...]

Article

[...]While some have blamed homosexuality, Blaine adds that abuse is often about finding the easiest targets. "Traditionally, priests had more access to boys," Blaine says. In the past, only boys were allowed to be altar servers; altar girls are a recent phenomenon. And nobody raised an eyebrow when priests chaperoned boys on trips; they couldn't do the same with girls.
[...]
Also, male and female victims are treated differently.

"Most of the females who try to come forward gave up because they were treated as if they somehow seduced a priest," says Sheila Poettgen, 31, of Burlington, Vt. Poettgen, who says she was abused by a priest when she was 10, asked women on SNAP's Web site what they went through before she publicly reported her own abuse, she says.

"If you're dealing with an adolescent girl, the likelihood that she'll be cast as seductress is virtually certain," says Gary Schoener, executive director of the Walk-In Counseling Center in Minneapolis and a frequent expert witness in abuse cases.

"I've never yet had a boy, even in a deposition, accused of seducing a pastor," he says, but "girls are accused regularly. It's a given. They're going to be asked if they enjoyed it, if they have orgasms."

It's almost like there's something in the bible about blaming females for all sins. The rest of the old article here

The point is a faith is not a state.

Shhh! If they're a state the US can go in and occupy the Vatican and "liberate" the Vaticanese!

[Ben Kenobi]

He proclaims to be heterosexual, which means attraction to females from 1 month old to 100 year old. He's basically admitted to being a pedophile with this latest salvo of logic.

Right. So in saying that some men are attracted to boys and men, you conclude that I'm attracted to girls and women? Sorry Asher. Just because you want to call me a pedophile doesn't make it so. By your logic, you are a pedophile too.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, I'm saying that attraction to little boys is not a sign that someone is attracted to men.

This is an assertion without any evidence. Are you claiming that none of the molestors are homosexual? That's a pretty big leap.

If a priest molests a boy it is entirely possible that they don't find adults attractive, and also possible that they prefer adult women to adult men. Your conclusions are either inspired by ignorance or bigotry.

And it's entirely possible that they are attracted to both. I don't see how whitewashing things to prevent scrutiny is helping you. All you are confirming to me is that you care more about political correctness than you care about the children.

[Kidlicious]

This was and is true. However, when was the last time the church actually took a tough line on a personal failing?

When was the last time they cared about little boys?

[Ben Kenobi]

Again... you are just claiming they are homosexuals with absolutely no proof.

So. You don't regard the fact that 90 percent of the molestation is by men to boys as evidence that perhaps homosexuality might be part of the problem?

Again, do you understand the difference between pedophiles and homosexuals.

What difference is there? Some homosexuals prefer boys. Some prefer men. Some prefer both. And yes, this applies to heterosexuals too. You can be heterosexual and a pedophile, just as you can be homosexual and a pedophile.

You are a complete bigot, trying to blame the entire problems with the church on homosexuals

How am I a bigot? I've not said that only homosexuals are pedophiles, as Asher's quite rightly said my logic presumes that pedophiles can be heterosexual and homosexual. That the vast, vast majority of abuse is conducted by men to boys and not men to girls, I regard as evidence that the molestors are in fact homosexual and same-sex attraction is the root of the problem wrt to priest molestors. Deal with those who have these attractions and you deal with the root of the problem.

You just keep making crap up

What am I making up here? Do you contest that the vast majority of abuse cases are between men molesting boys?

Gee... an anomoly... I guess that means ALL THE OTHER CASES that they weren't trying to protect the church. You are a total moron.

Hardly an anomaly. Or are you arguing that there's nothing statistically significant about the wisconsin case? Does this mean there wasn't a coverup at all.

Interesting argument Ming.

You also can define them by their actions... especially what they do in difficult times. And we see what they did... they covered it up for years... very defining! They can pay lip service to their teachings all they want, but in the end, they allowed children to suffer one of the cruelest crimes.

So, do you believe that NAMBLA is a problem? What do you think of them? Yes the Church has her problems, but they do not condone molestation and are replacing or have replaced the bishops involved. This is what you would expect of an organisation that is dealing with the problem, not trying to avoid the hard things that must be done.

No... not discussed... you made crap up and ignored everything else. You offered no real proof. And you ignored studies done by the same church that you defend.

The studies which showed 1-4 percent? You need to read your studies again Ming.

I guess that proves that you are still an idiot.

Who's the idiot here? The person who despises the Church yet calls himself Catholic, or the person who likes the Church and eventually chose to join?

So you are really claiming that only the pedophiles themselves knew? That no Bishops knew about it... are you claiming that Bishops aren't authorities in the church. Can you prove that no Cardinals knew...
You have no facts. If anything the facts are against you since Bishops DID KNOW!

You are right that some of the bishops did in fact know. However, some of the bishops were involved with the abuse and were complicit which is why they did not report back to the Vatican for 40 years, until after things got shuffled out. I'm glad to see that you are finally placing the blame where it belongs on the Bishops who were aware and chose to conceal their own actions.

Yeah... they care about changing the Church... they want them subject to the same laws as the rest of us... they want the church to STOP PROTECTING priests who abuse children. The comments you make are only opinions from your warped mind. Again, you are blaming the messenger instead of the real problem... BAD PRIESTS and those that covered it up.

I know I'm right about it because I know what they really care about is not these children, but that the church doesn't agree with them on the important issues. I would wager that these are identical to the issues that you have chosen to follow and reject church teachings.

Nahhh... just following the story. If there wasn't a story, you know, priests raping children and higher ups covering it up, they wouldn't have anything to write about.

Which is what they reported back in 1996. They must be pretty busy to recycle a 15 year old story.

Even if all the alligations aren't true, enough of them are to show a pattern of abuse and coverup.
Anybody with a brain can see that.

Baloney. We don't know anything about the abuse hotline just from the number of calls made.

And how can you defend the priests that prey on their flock.

I haven't defended them. I've defended the Church.

The RCC has protected these evil priests, and covered up the story. How can you defend that.

I haven't defended the bishops. I'm the only one who's called the bishops out. I've defended the Church.

And how can you attack those that are trying to actually protect the victims.

What, people like the Panzerkardinel? You folks are the ones calling for his resignation, rather then cheering him on as he gets rid of the dissenting priests and bishops.

You seem to not care one bit for the children. Wait until you have some, then maybe you will actually start to care about them instead of defending those that would molest them.

I'm not going to even dignify that with a response Ming. At least one of us has the class not to bring our families into it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Boys are in a far more vulnerable position to priests than girls in the catholic church, so stop your lying and made up crap.

That's not what I see. Plenty of girls serving in the altar. Maybe your parish 15 years ago was different, but that was the last time you were there. Things have changed, Ming.

[giblets]

This is an assertion without any evidence. Are you claiming that none of the molestors are homosexual? That's a pretty big leap.

No, you ****ing idiot. I'm saying that a molester may or may not be homosexual. Let's backtrack a bit. You claimed that homosexuals are responsible for 90% of the molestation. When pressed for proof you claimed that 90% of the victims are boys. That only makes sense if all people who molest boys are homosexual. I'm challenging that assumption.

In other words, you made this argument:
1. All men who molest boys are homosexual
2. 90% of the children molested by priests are boys
3. Therefore, 90% of the victims were molested by homosexuals

Your generalization that all men who molest boys are homosexual is wrong for so many reasons. First of all molestation is not necessarily motivated by sexual gratification. Second pedophiles are often turned on by children of both sexes and not turned on by adults so calling them homosexual is nonsensical. Finally a pedophile could be attracted to adult women but not adult men.

I'm not saying that none of the victims were molested by homosexuals. I'm pointing out that your conclusions depend on a claim that all male victims were molested by homosexuals, a claim you can't prove.

And it's entirely possible that they are attracted to both. I don't see how whitewashing things to prevent scrutiny is helping you. All you are confirming to me is that you care more about political correctness than you care about the children.

Yet again you get your ass kicked in a debate and start whipping out the ad hominems. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you look, defending an institution that enabled child molesters while accusing others of not caring about children?

[Ben Kenobi]

I just have to comment on this Ben. Disagreement is not wrong. Christians are not always in agreement, and that's pretty human and natural too.

It's natural, but it doesn't mean that it's ideal. And there's a difference between honest disagreement, and making it personal by bringing family into it.

I thought Ming understood that this is a line you do not cross.