Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[rah]

Correct wez, at least he stopped saying that priests in the US aren't subject to US laws.

One question BEN. If it is indeed shown that the POPE sent out a cover up memo prior to being Pope, should he resign?

[Wezil]

The point wasn't really directed at you Ben. I think to a person we are in agreement that you are a nutter.

I'm still wondering at the motivation of people that will spend page after page (and presumably hours of their time) arguing with you.

You won't accept a fact if it hits you over the head yet you have no problem whatsoever making **** up. It's not a rational debate by any standards and a person would have to be insane themselves to think that with just one more post they can finally make you see the light. This can't be it.

It is certainly possible to "win" a debate against you but we (the rest of us at Poly) have a distinct advantage - we're not nuts. Is it the satisfaction of besting the idiot at debate that makes people continue to take you seriously? If so -

I'd love to hear an explanation for this. Asher? Rah? Ming? Why do you do it? You think he's absolutely nuts but you continue to give him the one thing that ensures we will be cursed with his insanity forever.

[rah]

He embodies why I am no longer a practicing RC. Yeah, I'll still claim to be one for the purposes of weddings and funerals or high holidays.

When I was growing up and being instructed by the nuns, I actually believed all the beautiful things the nuns taught. All the high sounding things the church stood for. Then I got older and started to participate more and began to see that the church was more interested in protecting it's status in the community (yes, I'll agree that it did some good things for the community but that was only a means to the ends). It's people like Ben that let's them get away with it. His unwillingness to see anything bad makes sure that it will never change. So indirectly I blame people like Ben for what the church has become. Yes, not that rational at all, but I do miss the church that I grew up with and it's fun to take out that frustration on such an easy target. How could anyone read what he posts here and still desire to be a part of the religious experience that he portrays.

[Wezil]

Oh come on. Do you really think Ben represents a "typical" Catholic, or typical anything for that matter? I'm an atheist with little use for any organised religion but even I don't think that.

He's nuts Rah. Arguing with a crazy person is... kind of crazy don't you think?

[rah]

I'm afraid he's more typical than you think.
I remember arguing with quite a few of "BEN" types growing up, with the same bigotry and ignorance and simple blind faith in all sorts of stupid things.

And yes, it's crazy to think than anything I could say will change him, but I was once a RC so by definition, I'm slightly crazy already.

[Ben Kenobi]

One question BEN. If it is indeed shown that the POPE sent out a cover up memo prior to being Pope, should he resign?

No, Popes are popes till they die.

[rah]

If a standing Pope kills a man, should he resign.

[Ming]

They can only act on informed cases. If the bishops themselves are complicit, then it's not the organisation which is responsible but the wayward bishop.

This isn't limited to just a few priests and a few Bishops... the problem is GLOBAL... many countries, multiple continents... possible memos, possible involvement by the current head of the church.
This was not a secret within the organization. They knew a problem existed and covered it up simply to protect the institution and NOT the victims. And because of it, there were far more victims. Talk about not caring about kids...

The only thing the organisation would be responsible for is putting active homosexuals in positions of authority. So far we are batting 1000 in that the priests who abuse these children just coincidentally happen to be gay.

Oh... so now blame it on the gays. They are pedophiles, not homosexuals... don't you understand the difference. The one thing they all had in common that, and are batting 1000 on is that they were ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS!

Why not the priests and the bishop responsible? That would make more sense to me.

And the institution that allowed it to continue... this was a global problem, which the Church covered up.

Neither can I. Which is why I want to see the abusers punished so that they cannot abuse any more. Most are dead at this point in time.

But many who helped them cover it up are still with us, and in positions of power... I want to see that it never happens again.

No, I care about the facts. I can make the distinction between an organisation and the perpetrators, which apparently you are unable to do.

No... you ignore real facts and blindly support the institution that has allowed this to continue for many, many years. And you earlier point that priests are less likely to abuse children than the general population is just made up crap, because you can't prove that and never did. You just make stuff up or point to numbers and then misuse them with "BEN" math...

It wasn't until the chuch started getting called out on this by the media did they start to try to do anything about it. It's sad that an institution that bills itself as an extension of God on Earth has to be called out by the media before they act against those that abuse God's greatest gift, our children.
It's sad that they cared more about covering their own asses than they did the victims... It's sad that the church put people who could cover up something like this in a position of power. It's sad the the current head of the church may have been involved in the cover up...

[Ben Kenobi]

When I was growing up and being instructed by the nuns, I actually believed all the beautiful things the nuns taught.

Rah, the difference betwen you and me, is that I still believe in these things and you don't.

All the high sounding things the church stood for. Then I got older and started to participate more and began to see that the church was more interested in protecting it's status in the community

So. You don't believe in anything that the church teaches, and yet you still label yourself a Catholic? Who's the real hypocrite here?

I'm exactly what I say I am. I'm a convert to Catholicism. I believe in the Church and what she teaches. Why are you surprised that I would defend her from the attacks of ex-Catholics?

It's people like Ben that let's them get away with it.

I notice you never qualify your statements. Who? The priest? The bishop?

His unwillingness to see anything bad makes sure that it will never change.

Quite the contrary. I wasn't always a Catholic, rah. I've seen good and bad things about the Church, and I know everything is not sunshine and lolipops. But, I've seen the other side as well, and I'd much rather be a Catholic.

So indirectly I blame people like Ben for what the church has become.

Why? I wasn't there when all this happened. How am I responsible for events that occurred long before I was born.

If anything, people like you are why the Catholic church is struggling. If more boomers actually treated their faith seriously perhaps the Church wouldn't have all these scandals coming out.

Yes, not that rational at all, but I do miss the church that I grew up with and it's fun to take out that frustration on such an easy target. How could anyone read what he posts here and still desire to be a part of the religious experience that he portrays.

I find it funny that you blame me for your lack of faith.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ben is very much like the legalistic Jews that Jesus railed against.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh... so now blame it on the gays.

Yep, sure do. When over and over we see homosexual priests responsible for the abuse, I think we all know what the cause is here.

They are pedophiles, not homosexuals...

A man molests a boy, you are both a homosexual and a pedophile.

The one thing they all had in common that, and are batting 1000 on is that they were ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS!

So why is it always boys then and not girls?

And the institution that allowed it to continue...

In the Wisconsin incident, the bishop, (also gay), covered it up for 40 years. And yet, you don't blame him. Unreal.

But many who helped them cover it up are still with us, and in positions of power... I want to see that it never happens again.

By attacking the one man who is doing something about it, the PanzerKardinel. Sorry, don't buy it. I'm behind Pope Benedict 100 percent, and I hope he replaces all of the dissenting bishops that are fighting him right now.

No... you ignore real facts and blindly support the institution that has allowed this to continue for many, many years.

Canon law is explicit that this is not permitted.

And you earlier point that priests are less likely to abuse children than the general population is just made up crap, because you can't prove that and never did.

I did prove it. It's anywhere between 1-4 percent of priests, based on accusations, not proven cases.

It wasn't until the chuch started getting called out on this by the media did they start to try to do anything about it.

Because you keep tabs on what's going on outside of the media? Perhaps you only know what the media tells you which is why you know exactly what to think. Go read the Times, and they will tell you everything you need to know.

Some of us, actually rely on other sources.

It's sad that an institution that bills itself as an extension of God on Earth has to be called out by the media before they act against those that abuse God's greatest gift, our children.

Well because we know that the Times has the best interests of children at hand.

What did the Times ever do to earn your faith?

[Imran Siddiqui]

AFAIK, The New York Times was never engaged in hushing up pedophila committed by its staff...

[rah]

Damn, BEN, learn to read. You even quoted it for god's sake. "LIKE BEN" There are quite a few jerks like you active in the Church. The reborns are usually the worst since they think it's more special to choose it instead of being born into it.

Unless I actually go out and convert, I'll always consider myself Catholic. I'm just not that serious about it anymore. If I was, I'd be embarassed as hell. Certain things I still believe, but the church's stand on so many other issues is so ridiculous that it's impossible to just accept the whole package without questioning it. And people that just accept anything a person tells them without questioning it, is an idiot. Especially if the person saying it claims to get his info straight from god.

[Ben Kenobi]

AFAIK, The New York Times was never engaged in hushing up pedophila committed by its staff...

No, but they did cover for Jayson Blair for years before the truth finally broke. If they are willing to publish, 'fake, but accurate' stories, then how can you trust them at all? I sure can't.

[Ben Kenobi]

Damn, BEN, learn to read. You even quoted it for god's sake. "LIKE BEN" There are quite a few jerks like you active in the Church. The reborns are usually the worst since they think it's more special to choose it instead of being born into it.

Well, then let me make it clear. I envy your upbringing. I did not grow up a Christian. I wish I had nuns teaching me and all that cool stuff. I spent 19 years without him and 24 without the Catholic church, and I am still learning.

You've got me pegged all wrong. In many people's eyes I will never be a 'true' Catholic because I am a convert and I was baptised elsewhere. I'm fine with that. I would rather that everyone who was born in the faith would grow up and defend her all the years of their lives.

I would especially wish that people like yourself and Ming would return to the Faith and practice as you once did. Yes, you are a Catholic, and you will always be one, all the days of your life.

Certain things I still believe, but the church's stand on so many other issues is so ridiculous that it's impossible to just accept the whole package without questioning it.

Well that's a step. Which things cause you trouble? I had plenty of trouble with different teachings, but I had a good priest who walked me through them until I understood. No, it took me 2 years, Ming. 2 years of questioning my own faith and puzzling them out, from the summer of 2003 to about the summer of 2005 before I was willing to join.