Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[Asher]

This is just like Nazi germany!

[giblets]

First they came for the pedophiles, and I did nothing, because I wasn't a pedophile.

[Asher]

[Ben Kenobi]

Sure we care about it because it is the Catholic church... because it is in an institution that has allowed the abuse of children for years.

And so has the department of education. Why don't we see article after article going over the abuse that happens every day in there?

You seem to be the one that doesn't care about the children since all you do is defend the institution that lets the abuse continue. So don't give me the ole, we don't care about he victims.

I defend the institution, because the institution is not responsible. I do not defend the perpetrators who are responsible. There's a difference.

There wasn't much to be said about yet another story that shows how evil the Church has been.

So there was nothing to say about the children? Thank you ming. This is exactly what I was saying. People don't care about the children, they just want to smear the Church. They only get upset when the smears are challenged.

[Nikolai]

In Norway, we just got out share of the scandal. Thankfully, it seems like the Catholic Church did a better job here.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/paven/artikkel.php?artid=595548

From google translate, with slightly help from me:

The former Catholic bishop of Trondheim, Georg Müller, confessed last summer sexual abuse of an underage altar boy many years ago, according to Adresseavisen.

The case is the first abuse case linked to the Catholic Church in this country. In Europe, the pedophilia scandal has grown in recent weeks with an increasing number of cases of sexual abuse and violence carried out by Catholic priests.

Bishop Georg Müller shocked congregation at the Catholic high mass in Trondheim Sunday 7 June last year when he announced that he was released from his office. The news came like lightning from a clear sky on the Catholic community in Trondheim. The official explanation was cooperation issues in the church. After repeated inquiries from Adresseavisen, came yesterday confirmation of what really happened around the dramatic departure.

- The Catholic Church in Norway is shaken in its foundations. First and most foremost, I wish to emphasize my sympathy for the victim. Secondly, I express my shame on the Church's behalf and to emphasize that Müller has acted against all of the policies he is subject to and the promises he has taken, "said the Bishop of Trondheim and Oslo, Bernt Eidsvig, in a press release.

Altar boy

The victim in Trondheim was the altar boy and George Muller was a priest when the abuse occurred 20 years ago, according to Adresseavisen. The case is now criminally obsolete.

The Bishop of Trondheim and Oslo, Bernt Eidsvig, told Adresseavisen that Müller searched resignation immediately after he was referred to the allegations.

Eidsvig conveyed yesterday the Vatican's statement on the matter.

- I speak on behalf of Cardinal Levada, the prefect of the Congregation of Faith: There were accusations against Bishop Georg Müller, who was sent to the Holy See in February last year. The content of the allegation was sexual abuse of a minor. After the survey confessed Bishop Müller accusation, and his resignation was accepted, "he told Adresseavisen.

The victim's wishes

Eidsvig said that Muller has been a "psychological treatment, or therapy, and been subject to the spiritual direction" after he resigned.

- The matter has not been made public because the victim in the case have not wanted it. The person is now well over the age of majority. The church has ensured that the conditions are obsolete under Norwegian law, "said Eidsvig the Times.

Investigated by the Vatican

The alarm went the victim, now a grown man, talked about the sexual abuse of a Catholic priest.

A priest in the Catholic Diocese of Oslo was the archbishop in Stockholm was to investigate the matter. He listened to the aggrieved explanation and found it credible. Vatican ambassador to the Nordic countries, Archbishop Emil Paul Tscherrig, sent the case to the Vatican where it was considered by three judges in a tribunal. The decision was that Muller had to resign.

When Müller was summoned to the archbishop, he put the cards on the table, write Adresseavisen.

Refusal of several

Eidsvig says Archbishop pressured Müller to the question whether he had committed atrocities against other people, and that Müller argued that such was not the case.

Asked if he is confident that the former bishop spoke the truth, "said Eidsvig:

- I can not be 100 percent sure of that.

He says that the case is not reported because in general, is the church's responsibility when the victim is a legal person. Secondly, there was a point that the case was criminally obsolete.

Eidsvig says that there is a lot of the Catholic Church has been able to do to find out whether there were multiple victims.

- If the victim in this case had wanted it, so we had done it. But I'm pretty sure that the charges would come of itself. It is difficult to do anything until the charges are reported, he said.

Low profile

Georg Müller has not allowed himself to track down the comment about the case. Neither Trondheim pin, the bishop of Oslo or the man's religious brothers in Germany knows where the former Bishop trondheim staying.

Müller has been excluded from positions of the church can give him and will never get any position in the church more.

- To restore the victim has lost, is impossible. It is the worst of abuse cases, said Eidsvig.

[Ming]

And so has the department of education. Why don't we see article after article going over the abuse that happens every day in there?

So start a thread on the subject... post all the proof and it will be discussed. Last time I checked, this thread was about the catholic church, and that's what we are discussing.

I defend the institution, because the institution is not responsible. I do not defend the perpetrators who are responsible. There's a difference.

You are defending the institution that ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN AND TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. They are responsible because of their lack of real action in many cases.

So there was nothing to say about the children? Thank you ming. This is exactly what I was saying. People don't care about the children, they just want to smear the Church. They only get upset when the smears are challenged.

We do care about the children, and that's why we are attacking the chuch that allowed it to continue.
Because of the Church, MORE children got abused... and that's simply evil. As a parent, I can't think of anything worse than supposed trust worthy people being in a position to continue to abuse children. You keep defending the church for their cover ups and lack of action while ignoring the harm the church has allowed on the children. YOU are the one not thinking about the victims, you only care about defending a church that has FAILED it's followers.

[rah]

It is hilarious to see what Ben is reduced to in his arguments.

We now don't care about the children.


Hmm, why do you think we're so vocal here? If it was any organization doing this and covering it up, we'd be vocal against any tool that was defending the organization. The newspapers are just reporting the facts. Whenever there's any whiff of something like this from any organization, the news hounds jump on it. Especially if it's an organization that we entrust our children too. The boy scouts have suffered but at least they weren't hiding it and reassigning scout masters to different troops to molest again.

Ben's insanity continues.

And what makes it more personal to me is that I grew up as a RC and supported it and even gave thoughts to becoming a priest. If even part of whats been reported about the pope's involvement in the cover up is true, the MAN should never be representing GOD to anybody.

Yes we're attacking the organization and it's leaders. It how you make it stop. That's how you protect the children. You show that this type of activity will result in extreme punishments and any attempts to cover it up are equally bad. Then maybe other leaders that learn that it's happening under their watch, will do the right thing, instead of what the RCC did about this.

[Kidlicious]

I defend the institution, because the institution is not responsible. I do not defend the perpetrators who are responsible. There's a difference.

That's crap. By that reasoning an institution is never responsible.

[Ben Kenobi]

By that reasoning an institution is never responsible.

Hmm? How so? The perpetrators are responsible for the abuse. I don't think there's any disagreement on that point. The only disagreement is whether there was a coverup on the part of the Catholic church, and the evidence presented so far says no.

The Times is trying to implicate Pope Benedict through whatever means they can, and so far all that they have shown is that there were some very bad bishops in the USA who broke Canon law.

BTW, there's a new archbishop of Los Angeles, finally.

[Kidlicious]

Hmm? How so? The perpetrators are responsible for the abuse. I don't think there's any disagreement on that point. The only disagreement is whether there was a coverup on the part of the Catholic church, and the evidence presented so far says no.

The first disagreement that people are having with you is whether or not your church (the institution) is producing pedophile priests. The second disagreement that people are having with you is whether or not your church is covering up the incidents.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hmm, why do you think we're so vocal here?

Vocal? You folks only spoke up after I posted. Crickets chirp here when there's an article on abuse.

If it was any organization doing this and covering it up, we'd be vocal against any tool that was defending the organization.

Why? I'm not contesting that the abuse occurred. I'm contesting the role of the organisation. If it's about the kids, you shouldn't much care about what I say about the organisation.

If it's all about hating on the Catholic church, then I can totally see why you would become vocal when dealing with a defender of the Church.

The newspapers are just reporting the facts.

This is the same paper that had Jayson Blair. Fake but accurate is the name of the game for the Times. No, the papers report what they want to report. Facts never enter the picture.

Whenever there's any whiff of something like this from any organization, the news hounds jump on it. Especially if it's an organization that we entrust our children too.

Why then doesn't the Times report about abuse in the public education system? They report on two things. The Catholic church, and the boy scouts. Why? Because both have policies that oppose homosexuality.

And what makes it more personal to me is that I grew up as a RC and supported it and even gave thoughts to becoming a priest. If even part of whats been reported about the pope's involvement in the cover up is true, the MAN should never be representing GOD to anybody.

Well I'm thankful you aren't one of the dissident priests. We need faithful priests, not unfaithful ones. I wish you'd come back to the Church, rah. The door is always open.

Yes we're attacking the organization and it's leaders. It how you make it stop. That's how you protect the children. You show that this type of activity will result in extreme punishments and any attempts to cover it up are equally bad. Then maybe other leaders that learn that it's happening under their watch, will do the right thing, instead of what the RCC did about this.

You think I'm opposed to rooting out the folks responsible? Hardly. The panzerkardinel is trying to attack the source which is why the Times is attacking him. If he were not effective, they wouldn't be trying to oust him. You really believes that the Times actually cares about the children? No. They care about protecting the dissident American priests. This is why they attacked the Pope, and not the priest (gay), or the bishop (gay), who were responsible for the abuse and the abuse not being reported.

The Times knows which side their bread is buttered on.

[Ben Kenobi]

The first disagreement that people are having with you is whether or not your church (the institution) is producing pedophile priests.

Oh, so you want to defend that preposition. Fine. I'd love to see evidence that pedophilia is a problem for the priests moreso than the general population. We discussed that before, and the evidence is pretty clear that there are fewer priests. This would mean that the Catholic church is not only not producing pedophiles, but that it is somewhat successful in screening them out of the priesthood.

[Ben Kenobi]

You are defending the institution that ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN AND TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. They are responsible because of their lack of real action in many cases.

They can only act on informed cases. If the bishops themselves are complicit, then it's not the organisation which is responsible but the wayward bishop. The only thing the organisation would be responsible for is putting active homosexuals in positions of authority. So far we are batting 1000 in that the priests who abuse these children just coincidentally happen to be gay.

We do care about the children, and that's why we are attacking the chuch that allowed it to continue.

Why not the priests and the bishop responsible? That would make more sense to me.

Because of the Church, MORE children got abused... and that's simply evil. As a parent, I can't think of anything worse than supposed trust worthy people being in a position to continue to abuse children.

Neither can I. Which is why I want to see the abusers punished so that they cannot abuse any more. Most are dead at this point in time.

You keep defending the church for their cover ups and lack of action while ignoring the harm the church has allowed on the children. YOU are the one not thinking about the victims, you only care about defending a church that has FAILED it's followers

No, I care about the facts. I can make the distinction between an organisation and the perpetrators, which apparently you are unable to do.

[Wezil]

As the saying goes.

Don't debate with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[Ben Kenobi]

Wow, a Wezil post that actually shows wisdom...

What's the phrase, do not cast your pearls before swine?

Thanks Wezil, but I don't mind arguing with these folks.