Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[MikeH]

Spot on Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

Wives, submit to your husbands.

Not the same thing.

Everyone is called to submit to Christ irrespective of their personality. It comes easier for submissive persons, and less easier for more assertive people.

The same is true of wives wrt to their husbands. As a personality trait I like strong women. Always have. That doesn't mean that I don't also think they should submit to their husbands.

I also believe that a husband should be willing to die for his wife too. That's the other half of the equation.

[Ben Kenobi]

After all, its all there in Jesus's words, "love thy neighbor as thyself" (Mark 12:31) - and quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be submissive to anyone so how can I mandate a wife to be?

Would you die for your wife Imran? I think it's funny how everyone who objects to the submission part is quiet about the sacrifice part. Both I think are essential in marriage.

[Ben Kenobi]

ultimately someone will have to be the more submissive one for the thing to work. I believe that the more submissive of the two is generally viewed higher with God.

No, that's not true. You've hit on the point that someone is supposed to be the leader here. I don't think wives, as much as they say otherwise like to have to take on that role. I'm also pretty certain most of them these days would really like a guy to step up but there aren't too many guys like that these days.

But Ben has said in another thread that he takes it literally that wives should be the ones who should be submissive.

I say they should submit to their husbands, not be submissive in personality. The two are different things.

[Ecofarm]

Ben, should the husband submit to the wife?

[Ben Kenobi]

I think the entire idea of "submissive partner" was just a mysogynistic relic. Women were expected to be second class, which is why Paul saw it in those terms.

Yet Paul states that the "two become one flesh", and that 'each wife should have her own husband'. This was radical at the time. I don't believe that paul ever asserted that husbands and wives were not equal. While they are equal in value, they are different in role.

What you are leaving out is what Paul says is akin to marriage, the relationship between Christ and his Church. Christ gave his life for the Church, and the husband should be the head of the house as Christ is of his house. I don't think the standard feminist approach even attempts to address this point.

Frankly, the 'modern' approach to marriage simply isn't working Imran. Divorces are far higher then they once were, and fewer people are getting married. I'm not sure why you think we are wiser then the folks who came before us, who seemed to have no difficulty getting and keeping their marriages.

[Ben Kenobi]

As a brother in Christ, he can choose to do so. Christians are called to submit to one another in Christ. As a husband he gets final say.

[Ecofarm]

Naked sexism.

I understand that times were different, that labor duties needed to be divided for specialization thus efficiency, I get all that... but today?

[Asher]

As a husband he gets final say.

You're such a *****.

(That was for you, Eco)

[Ben Kenobi]

Ecofarm, men and women are fundamentally different from one another.

[Asher]

Ecofarm, men and women are fundamentally different from one another.

Men have penises, women have vaginas, all are human beings with equal rights.

Sorry, Ben.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Would you die for your wife Imran? I think it's funny how everyone who objects to the submission part is quiet about the sacrifice part. Both I think are essential in marriage

I would hope my wife would die for me as well. Therefore neither of us would be the submissive partner. Both partners submitting is different than Kid's approach of one seemingly always being a submissive parner.

Frankly, the 'modern' approach to marriage simply isn't working Imran. Divorces are far higher then they once were, and fewer people are getting married. I'm not sure why you think we are wiser then the folks who came before us, who seemed to have no difficulty getting and keeping their marriages.

What makes you think the "ancient" approach to marriage worked. Just because people were trapped in unhappy marriages and couldn't leave doesn't make it better. The whole divorce not being allowed and all (Heck, that was the proximate cause the Anglican Church).

[MrFun]

Men have penises, women have vaginas, all are human beings with equal rights.

Sorry, Ben.

It might take awhile for Ben to get this.

[Ben Kenobi]

What makes you think the "ancient" approach to marriage worked.

Because the modern approach isn't working very well. It sucks for everyone, husbands, wives and the kiddos. Yes, some people were trapped in unhappy marriages, but marriage isn't easy. Those who stick it out tend to be far happier than those who split up.

[Asher]

Because the modern approach isn't working very well. It sucks for everyone

Wow, somebody had a ****ed up family life.

My parents love eachother and they love me.

Sorry to hear that you were hit on the head many times by your family and they all hate you.