Canada declares war on Switzerland

[notyoueither]

I thought pigs bleed a lot when they have been stuck.

[Asher]

Turns out Serb is right. These judges are slanted.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=48108.html?cid=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Questions raised over ice dance judging panel

VANCOUVER - The results of the European ice dancing championships were questionable, say some non-Canadian international judges who fear that the same will happen at the Olympics this week.

The panels drawn for the compulsory dance and for the original dance Sunday night favour Russian-bloc countries. Not only is Alla Shekhovtsova (wife of Russian federation president Valentin Piseev) on the panel, but so is Irina Nechkina, a Russian who judges for Azerbaijan.

Nechkina was dropped off the Olympic dance panel at the Turin Olympics for four serious judging errors or bias. At the previous European championship, she'd had the fourth judging assessment for poor judging and with the International Skating Union, four strikes against you gives you a demotion. She could still judge international events, but not ISU championships.

Nechkina lives in St. Petersburg and used to be a judge for the Soviet Union.

"How can they still have her back on the panel at the Olympics after kicking her off the panel in Turin?'' questioned one European official who did not want to be named. "It's so obvious. It's in your face.''

There is no Azerbiajan team competing at the Olympics.

Also on the list is Ukrainian official Ludmila Mikhailovskaya, who used to be a member of the ISU's ice dancing technical committee, but was voted off at a Congress because she didn't speak English well enough and contributed little, according to sources.

The European championships were won by Russians Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin, who was coming off an injury that compromised his ability to dance. They won after amassing a five-point lead after the compulsory dance, and although they finished second in the next two segments, they had enough points to win the event.

The Russians did the tango romantica compulsory dance at the Europeans but one international judge said they were "just god-awful" and didn't deserve such a large lead. "The timing was off,'' the judge said. "Their edges weren't clean. They couldn't even get into the corner prior to the repeat [of the second pattern]. The pattern was much smaller on the second go-around. And they amassed a five-point lead on that dance that allowed them to be untouchable. To me and to others, it was absolutely [questionable].''

On Friday, Domnina and Shabalin got a lead of only 1.02 over Canadians Tessa Virtue of London, Ont., and Scott Moir of Ilderton, Ont. Although their speed has improved since the European championships and Shabalin seems able to use his knees more, and their interpretation was one of the best, several international judges canvassed by the Globe and Mail didn't feel they were the winners.

"They do look faster, his knees look better, he can at least straighten it out, but at the same time, that dance doesn't place many demands on the knee.''

The Russians are lucky that officials drew the tango romantica for the compulsory dance because the only other option was the Golden Waltz, the longest and most difficult of all the compulsory dances that judges say would be much, much harder on Shabalin's knees.

The tango romantica was drawn by the International Skating Union in early February with a couple of Russians as witnesses.

In the dance on Friday night, judges say their flow was not good, their edges weren't clean, Shabalinj didn't have the right snap to his footwork and the second tracing of the dance's pattern on the ice was smaller than the first.

Another judge found the grade of execution was "inflated" for the Russian team. And while their expression was good, it wasn't as good as Virtue and Moir or U.S. champions Meryl Davis and Charlie White.

Others found the French team, Isabelle Delobel and Olivier Schoenfelder were best technically, but they had lost a step in presentation. Still, they were confused that they were in sixth place.

And they said the second Russian team, Jana Khokhlova and Sergei Novitski shouldn't have been in the top 10, because they skated far apart (it's more difficult and high-risk to skate close together), their timing was off and they didn't show top edge quality.

"The judging panel is very limited for the western world,'' one official said.

For the original dance panel, officials introduce four new judges, but draw among the first nine for the final five spots.

Even with that shuffling, Shekhovtsova, Nechkina and Mikharilovskaya are still on the original dance panel, while Charlie Cyr of the United States - on the compulsory dance panel - has to sit out the original dance.

Canada's Jodi Abbott is on the original dance panel, and will be joined by Laurent Carriere (France), Laimute Krausziene (Lithuania), Akos Pethes (Hungary), Hilary Selby (Britain), and Albert Zaydman (Israel).

Katalin Alpern, who has judged for Israel for years, is on the technical panel here. It doesn't start operating until the original dance.

The International Skating Union does not release the names of judges' home countries on the panel.

And judges' scores are anonymous to the public.

[-Jrabbit]

This is exactly the kind of BS, always centered around the former USSR republics, that has defined figure skate the past two decades --especially in the oh-so-boring (and therefore barely worth watching) ice dance events.

[Serb]

If you want a quad-jumping contest, start a new sport.

I never claimed to be an expert, Serb.

So, your opinion is pretty much irrelevant comparing to the opinion of real pro like Stojko.

But my daughter started competitive skating when she was 4 and continued through age 20, and you learn a lot in that time.

Then you must know that figure skating is an extreme sport. It's years of blood, pain and injuries. You don't get hurt when you are shaking your ass in the footsteps, you brake your bones when you fall over and over again when you are learning how to perform that damn triple or quad.

Figure skating has always required ALL elements,

Sure it requres all elements but jumps are the most technically difficult element and must be valued accordigly.

and the judges scored the men's event consistenly and according to the rules.

No they did not. Plushenko has been robbed with few points in his short program when two of the judges placed him (a defending Olympic champion at that moment) 22nd and 23rd for one of the elements. That's bullsh!t. These scores were taken into account for the total score and he was only 0.6 pts ahead of Lysacek after the short program because of that. It was a highway robbery that cost him a gold medal. On the other hand, Lysacek recieved SEVEN points MORE for absolutely the SAME free program (and absolutely the same nearly flawless performance) at Olympics than he had at the last World Championships.

You have the same skater (Lysacek).
You have the same program (absolutely the same).
And you have the same performance.
But in the first case (at World Championships) you recieve 159.53 pts. And in the second case (at Olympics) you recieve 167.37 pts.
It's 7.84 pts more.
You do realize that to get a 7 points penalty you need to do a couple of serious mistakes like falling on ice. But that wasn't the case. The program was the same and his performance as well.
Go ahead, explain this.

If you want to argue that the rules are bad, that's a different discussion. The bottom line is, the scoring system was in place and well known (for several years) prior to these Olympics.

Since 2004 to be preciese. And guess who won the Olympics in 2006?
Since you seem to have no freaking idea about modern figure skaters I'll tell you that. Plushenko was the winner in 2006 under those new rules.
Not only a winner. He set new ISU records for both short and free programs there. And guess what Plushenko did in 2010 at European Championships after his comeback?
He won it with a NEW record for the short program.
And you are accusing him for not being ready for this "new" (introduced in 2004, a six God damn years ago) scoring system?

Man, you are just laughtable.

And Plushenko's program was not optimized for the rules of the competition.

Says who? "Mr. I'm not an expert"?

He lost by 1.31 points -- points he left on the table through poor program design. For instance:

Another perfect example of your competence.

1. Do an second quad, he wins.

So, you need TWO quads to beat a guy without a single quad?
You must be kidding me. Why not four quads? Twelve quads? Man, I can't beieve it. It's really above me. Two quads to beat a triple. Great.

2. Include the double loop that he had planned at the end of his quad-triple combination, he wins.
3. Execute one more jump, he wins. Lysacek executed 12; Plushenko, 11.
4. Be in good enough condition to to put more jumps into the second half of the program (10% scoring bonus), he wins.

Though I haven't counted the number of jumps (no youtube video yet) I'll tell you what.
He didn't all that because he is a pro. He can count points he should get for his program and compare it with the points his competitor already has. And he thought that 4+3 combination is more than ENOUGH to get more points than Lysacek had (without that combination). Any additional jump is additional risk. Why do you need to keep risking (doing a second quad as you suggested) when your rival DID NOT EVEN perform a single quad, while you did it in 4+3 combination?
Despite bad reffering at short program Plushenko still had the lead and his program was more complicated (and he should get more points than Lysacek's if he doesn't fall), so why the **** he needed to jump a 4+3+2 combination, when his rival even didn't have a single 4 jump? A 4+3 combination was good enough to beat 3+3 or 3+2.

In poker you don't need a royal flush to beat the straight - a simple flush would do that.

Instead, Plushenko wimped out, putting all his difficult elements in the beginning (a Russian trademark),

Not only Russians. It's a common practice.

with only 4 of his 11 jumps after the 2:15 mark. Lysacek, intelligently, backloaded his program, putting 8 of his 12 jumps in the second half.

Jumps that some students can do. Students can perform Lysacek's program according to Stojko. This is just not Olympic champion material.
Quad and 4+3 combination is ENTIRELY NEW LEVEL OF SKILL.
Olympic "champion" who can't do quads is a joke and a huge step backward for the sport. That was what Stojko was talking about.

But Plushenko took three years off, enjoyed his previous success, then got off the couch 9 month ago and came out of retirement.

You do realize that he retired because of his injuries? You do realize that he trained and performed at Euro-2010 and Olympics-2010 probably only thanks to painkillers?

His resulting lack of stamina was his fatal flaw, restricting him to a program that left the door open. He was also obviously off his usual game on both footwork and spins, subsituting upper-body posing for actual skating quality.

His spins and steps were OK. Not as absolutely fantastic as at 2006, but still fine. And again it's not my opinion, but opinion of Canadian champion.

Plushenko has a long history of whining and crying whenever he loses. His little tantrums whenever losing (usually to Yagudin) are legendary examples of poor sportsmanship and a total lack of class. The outrage from the Russian skating federation, coaches and politicians shows the same crybaby mentality.

Do you have any freaking idea what the heck are you talking about?
Learn some basics:
He lost to Yagudin only once at the 2002 Olympics.
"After Yagudin's retirement, Plushenko won most of the competitions he entered in the following four years. He finished second only twice. The first time was to Emanuel Sandhu at the 2004 Grand Prix Final. The second was the 2004 European Figure Skating Championship, where he lost to Brian Joubert."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Plushenko

Plushenko is the 2006 Winter Olympics gold medalist, 2002 and 2010 Winter Olympics silver medalist, three-time World Champion, six-time European Champion, a four-time Grand Prix Final champion and an eight-time (1999-2002, 2004-2006, 2010) Russian national champion.

That's a lot of victories and very few loses. So, go ahead and prove your stupid claim "Plushenko has a long history of whining and crying whenever he loses. His little tantrums whenever losing (usually to Yagudin) are legendary examples of poor sportsmanship and a total lack of class" with some evidences.
I insist.
Plushenko will remain a legend even 30 years after. Because he is a true champion. And if you ask people about Evan Lysacek a month after these Olympics their answer will be: "Evan WHO?"

As for Stojko, he's certainly entitled to his opinion. Considering that he was was the first to land a quad combination in competition and lost Olympic gold in Lillehammer through bad judging, it's no surprise. In fact, Elvis never won a World or Olympic title in his career -- basically because he paid no attention to the elements of presentation and artistry that a champion needs. In fact, he had trouble beating counntryman Kurt Browning (artistically gifted but with lesser jumping skills) consistently. He remains bitter to this day, obviously.

You must be blind or something? Do you read my posts at all?
I told you already that Stojko is a THREE TIMES World Champion.
Why do you keep posting such bullsh!t that demonstrates what kind of an expert you are (first a "Frenchman Lambiel" then this)?

If figure skating was just a jumping competition, Stojko would have had his championship. And Plushenko would have won on Thursday. But that's not what figure skating is, nor has it ever been.

Stojko had his championship THREE times, god damn it. And he didn't win the Olympic gold because he failed to do a 4+3 combination due to his injury.

Plushenko, while he had no falls, actually lost this competition on execution elements. He lost points on three of his jumps, and one of his spins was a mess. If anything, Lysacek's margin should have been greater -- because somehow, Plushenko was given equal marks on the component (artistic) elements, where he was clearly inferior.

Blah-blah-blah.
Stojko thinks otherwise. He is an expert. You are not.
The end of story.

Scoring at these competitions is close, and the rules are well known. To win, you must design your programs to maximize your score, then execute it on the ice. Plushenko's program would probably have won under the old scoring system. But this is 2010 and, with a front-loaded program virtually devoid of continuity and flow, his one quad jump was not enough to overcome a competitor who worked hard on conditioning and technique -

See above. Your accusations are just laughtable, because Plushenko set few records under this "new" rules. And he does know how to get more points under this system then anybody else ever had. He knows how to set records under this system. And he demonstrated that this year in Tallin when he won European Championships-2010 with a new record for the short program.

while Yvgeny relaxed in retirement for three years.

He was liking his wounds, you moron.

Lysacek was better prepared and delivered a flawless performance that was optimized for the rules of the competition.

BULLSH!T.
You can repeat that even a thousand times but that won't come true.
Plushenko's program was designed to get more points than Lysacek under the rules of the competition. But judges gave him ridiculously low marks, while giving Lysacek too much (7 points more then they did at the last WC).
That is a robbery.

I find it pathetic and sad that Plushenko and his handlers are playing the victim card. Their feeling of entitlement, and their total lack of class, while not surprising, are disappointing, and a stain on both their sport and the Olympics.

Once again, Elvis Stojko is CANADIAN champ. And he is pro. And when people see something VERY UNFAIR and VERY BAD FOR THEIR SPORT happens, they do complain.

IT'S A NORMAL HUMAN REACTION.

If you want a quad-jumping contest, start a new sport.

If you place ass-shaking, hand waving and smiling to judges over doing the most technically difficult elements (jumps), then you should stop bullsh!ting people and rename this sport into a DANCING ON ICE.

[Serb]

What were you watching... He had a quad, and nothing else.

What were YOU watching?
If Plushenko had "a quad (a 4+3 actually instead of just quad), and nothing else", then Lysacek just had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Plus, he stumbled his way thought his program. He came in second behind a person who not only had a better program,

OMG. You are an expert too?
HOW the **** he could have a better program if the basic value of his elements were LOWER. How a program without a single quad can be better than program with a 4+3 combination?
HOW?

but somebody who skated an almost flawless program.

A program so complicated that many students can skate it flawlessly.
Not according to Serb, but according to the real expert Elvis Stojko. And Plushenko skated an almost flawless program too, but his program had 4+3, while Lysacek's had not.

He should be blaming himself for not being sharp for the final skate.

Yeah, right. And the American lobbyists within the ISU whom placed Lysacek at the first place long before the event are not the ones to blame. Right. Keep bulsh!ting yourself.

Instead, he's whining like a stuck pig. Which is fine, because it only makes him look worse

FY, Ming, your country has a long history of stealing other people's medals.
We had the same dispute here with you in 2002 and 2006 if you remember.

[Serb]

This is exactly the kind of BS, always centered around the former USSR republics, that has defined figure skate the past two decades --especially in the oh-so-boring (and therefore barely worth watching) ice dance events.

What the matter with you?
I thought you are the guy who thinks skating without jumps is a hell of an action. And it's the right direction for the modern figure skating. Who needs those quads and 4+3 or 4+3+3 combinations when you can perform flawlessly at ass shaking like Lysacek just did? Lysacek is a hell of an ice dancer. And since you are a fan of his and fan of such a kind of action, why do you complain that ice dance events are "oh-so-boring"?
According to you, you don't need quads in men figure skating. Nice footwork, spins and artistic presentation are way more important than jumps in your universe.

So you have all this bullsh!t in the ice dancing and no jumps there. So you must be really happy watching ice dancing instead of complaining about boredom.

[Ben Kenobi]

What were you watching... He had a quad, and nothing else.

Landed a Quad Toe, Triple toe. No falls, enough for me.

Lysicek, what did he do? Triple axel, wow, great.

It's easier to do a flawless program, if you don't actually take risks. Pluschenko took risks and actually landed them.

[DaShi]

Are you people seriously arguing about men's figure skating?


It is, indeed, a rare event where I feel like the manliest mother****er around; thanks to all of you.

.

[Ming]

What were YOU watching?
If Plushenko had "a quad (a 4+3 actually instead of just quad), and nothing else", then Lysacek just had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Well... he had enough to actually perform his program flawlessly

OMG. You are an expert too?
HOW the **** he could have a better program if the basic value of his elements were LOWER. How a program without a single quad can be better than program with a 4+3 combination?
HOW?

Actually... both my daughters skated competitively, and I've had many discussions with judges.
You again focus on a single element, instead of looking at the program in total.

A program so complicated that many students can skate it flawlessly.
Not according to Serb, but according to the real expert Elvis Stojko. And Plushenko skated an almost flawless program too, but his program had 4+3, while Lysacek's had not.

Plushenko did NOT skate an almost flawless program. Most REAL experts would agree that he wasn't anywhere NEAR HIS BEST... The records he set in the past were when he did, but his final performance was not even close. If he had skated better, he would have won. But he didn't, so he lost, as he should have.

Yeah, right. And the American lobbyists within the ISU whom placed Lysacek at the first place long before the event are not the ones to blame. Right. Keep bulsh!ting yourself.


FY, Ming, your country has a long history of stealing other people's medals.
We had the same dispute here with you in 2002 and 2006 if you remember.

Coming from a Russian, this is actually funny. Check out the stories on the Ice Dancing judging... the Russians are up to their normal tricks

[-Jrabbit]

So the best you can do is try to discredit me based on an honest mistake (Swiss vs. French)? Tell me again about your qualifications, Serb. You offer no original thoughts, just blind outrage. You hang your entire argument on the opinion of one man (Stojko), ignoring the fact that many others, equally or more qualified, disagree. And do you really believe that victories from years ago should determine scores of the Olympics? Why bother with the actual skating?

Talk about laughable...

I know I'm not going to change your mind, but your entire argument still rests on "one quad beats no quads." Which is simply not how the sport works. In fact, in both the 2009 and 2008 men's world championships, the winner did not execute a quad.

Get over it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

US

[Asher]

Miller is a traitor and was the differencemaker in the game.

He came from a long line of Canadians but he was born in the US as his father played hockey in the US.

[Imran Siddiqui]

We enjoy taking your talented individuals who realize life in the US is a better choice, especially for their children

[OzzyKP]

US

[Serb]

Well... he had enough to actually perform his program flawlessly

Again, you are not argueing with me here. You are argueing with Canadian champion. And he thinks otherwise:

"In Thursday night’s men’s free skate, Lysacek skated slow and his jumps weren’t close to the technical ability of defending Olympic champion Evgeni Plushenko".

Actually... both my daughters skated competitively, and I've had many discussions with judges.

Well, again how many World Championships you have won? Stojko won three.

You again focus on a single element, instead of looking at the program in total.

Stojko again:
"Plushenko had a great performance. His footwork was great and maybe his spins weren’t quite as good as Lysacek’s, but it wasn’t that big of a difference. He also had a quad toe triple toe that wasn’t even attempted by anyone else. He did both triple axels, so all the jumps were there".
But the judges’ scoring was ridiculous."

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/figure_skating/news?slug=es-thoughts021810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Plushenko did NOT skate an almost flawless program.

See above: "Plushenko had a great performance. His footwork was great and maybe his spins weren’t quite as good as Lysacek’s, but it wasn’t that big of a difference.

If Plushenko had made some mistakes, then sure, maybe Lysacek deserves gold. But when you take the risk out of skaters’ programs, it doesn’t compute to me.
And it’s not a personal thing. I like Evan. But when you compare performances and have an outcome like this, the sport is going backward. And it hurts me to say it because I love this sport. But the judges made a mockery of it by giving Lysacek the gold. "

Most REAL experts would agree that he wasn't anywhere NEAR HIS BEST...

1) Who are these "REAL" experts? You and Jrabbit?
2) Plushenko have not competed with himself for this medal. So whether was he near his best or not is pretty irrelevant.

The records he set in the past were when he did, but his final performance was not even close.

Again, in 2010 he didn't compete with Plushenko-2006, he competed with the other skaters. So, it doesn't matter was he (in 2010) better than himself in 2006.

If he had skated better, he would have won. But he didn't, so he lost, as he should have.

He skated better than his competitors. That's enough. He didn't have to be better than himself 4 years ago to win in 2010. He just needed to better than the rest of the skaters there. And he was, according to Stojko (an me of course).

Coming from a Russian, this is actually funny. Check out the stories on the Ice Dancing judging... the Russians are up to their normal tricks

I did. Your media have launched a dirty campaign to discredit Domnina and Shebalin weeks ago, to put psycologicall pressure on them and to make it easier to stole their gold again.
Same dirty tricks as always. After the marks they have recieved today for their original dance I have no doubts that the ISU already knows who must be a winner (Canada) no matter what and who must to "get over it" again.