Did you know the Phoenix Coyotes lost $117M in 2007? And $72M last year?

[Wezil]

It is very much a regional sport. While the league is struggling to grow in unlikely markets there are quite viable team locations elsewhere.

[notyoueither]

That last line is the key. Where's the hockey culture in the south? Are there southern kids playing hockey? Did their parents play hockey in the south? Or did the only hockey lovers move down from the north?

The teams in the South put a lot of effort into expanding hockey (especially for youth) in their markets. The NHL does a lot all over the US as well.

It takes time, but hockey can take root in places where it has not had much presense in the past.

[Wezil]

With losses of $100M a year they better hurry up.

[notyoueither]

It is very much a regional sport. While the league is struggling to grow in unlikely markets there are quite viable team locations elsewhere.

The newer places in the South with teams tend to be in places with a lot of migrants from the NE and Canada (Pho, TB, Fla, Atl).

As for other viable places, where?

When has Winnipeg or Quebec City had an owner, a building, and a bid for expansion?

When has Hamilton had all three and the owner willing to follow the bid requirements?

Four teams have moved in the recent past. Winnipeg, Quebec City, Minnesota, and Hartford moved to Phoenix, Colorado, Dallas, and Carolina. The owners picked the destinations. You'll note they were not all Canadian teams.

There have been zero valid bids for new teams in Canadian cities. Despite that, Ottawa still got one.

[notyoueither]

With losses of $100M a year they better hurry up.

More ridiculous crap that Canadians eat up when fed the pablum.

[Wezil]

When has Hamilton had all three and the owner willing to follow the bid requirements?

If you think that is why Hamilton doesn't have a team I have a bridge to sell you.

Despite that, Ottawa still got one.

Why do you think it went to Ottawa and not Hamilton? See above. (The bridge is still for sale.)

[Guynemer]

There are plenty of non-Southern markets that would almost certainly better support an NHL franchise.

Seattle has a young population, and the team wouldn't have to compete with an NBA franchise in the same market. A natural rivalry with the Canucks could florish.

Portland also has a young, affluent population that would likely enjoy hockey.

Salt Lake would be a more natural destination as well.

That's three just off the top of my head.

[Wezil]

More ridiculous crap that Canadians eat up when fed the pablum.

Did you even read the posted article?

Baum noted the Coyotes have never made money since moving from Winnipeg in 1996, and lost nearly $400-million in total over the past five years.

Baum must have had a second serving of the pablum. :yum:

[notyoueither]

Moyes did interesting things like,

charge the Coyotes for office space in his other buildings despite the arena having ample offices for operations like the Coyotes have.

have the Coyoyes employ and pay people who work for other Moyes entities.

charge the Coyotes through the nose for transportaion on another of his companies.

charge Gretzky's personal services contract to the Coyotes. Much of the value of that contract was for promotional work being done by Gretzky for Moyes' other companies.

there are rules in the US for owners to be able to depreciate the value of the contracts of the athletes on top of the employment expense from writing the cheques. This is widely used. From what I've heard it was 'discovered' by a baseball owner in the 40's or 50's.

also keep in mind that the Moyes statement would be consolidated losses that include the running of the arena building (one of his related comapnies has the master lease and runs the whole show).

The Coyotes have never lost $100 milion dollars in a year. I doubt they have lost $100 million total. Moyes is claiming the money he has put into the team as loans and has filed a claim as a creditor. That claim is for $90 million, IIRC.

[notyoueither]

If you think that is why Hamilton doesn't have a team I have a bridge to sell you.

Despite that, Ottawa still got one.

Why do you think it went to Ottawa and not Hamilton? See above. (The bridge is still for sale.)

More 'wah, we want it handed to us because we deserve it, damnit!' *stomp* *cry*

Try complaining when your bid is valid. Until there is a valid bid, it is hard to see Hamilton, or Winnipeg, or Fly Speck as being too worthy.

[Wezil]

The Coyotes have never lost $100 milion dollars in a year. I doubt they have lost $100 million total. Moyes is claiming the money he has put into the team as loans and has filed a claim as a creditor. That claim is for $90 million, IIRC.

Sorry. I wasn't aware your sources were better than the bankruptcy court judge. You should tip him off to his error.

More 'wah, we want it handed to us because we deserve it, damnit!' *stomp* *cry*

Why have they been unsuccessful in their numerous attempts? You can't blame Balsillie, he's just the latest to try. They've had arena, fans, and money for years.

Try complaining when your bid is valid. Until there is a valid bid, it is hard to see Hamilton, or Winnipeg, or Fly Speck as being too worthy.

Please understand, it is not "my bid". Personally I think Hamilton is a ****hole that I avoid if at all possible. Quite frankly it is highly unlikely I would ever go there to see a game if they had a team.

That however doesn't make me willfully blind to the fact the NHL has been spending a lot of time and effort on what is proving to be a failed experiment while a perfectly viable market literally can't buy a team.

[notyoueither]

There are plenty of non-Southern markets that would almost certainly better support an NHL franchise.

Seattle has a young population, and the team wouldn't have to compete with an NBA franchise in the same market. A natural rivalry with the Canucks could florish.

Portland also has a young, affluent population that would likely enjoy hockey.

Salt Lake would be a more natural destination as well.

That's three just off the top of my head.

The problem with that, Guy, is that Glendale is a municipality that went into hawk up to the eyeballs to build a rink for an NHL franchise. They owe a couple hundred million on the bonds.

The NHL is willing to go to war to prevent the franchise from being highjacked out from under their lease. That was part of the bad blood with Balsillie (the other parts were things Balsillie did prior to Phoenix, and how he planned to use bankruptcy to force a move to where he wanted it, the leagues wishes be damned). They feel they have to, or other franchises will have a more difficult time getting public help for arenas.

Beyond that, to be considered as a destination, the NHL wants there to be a suitable building existing or secured. I don't know if any of the places you've named have that.

Kansas City is the leading candidate, because there is an NHL ready building waiting for a tenant. No Canadian city has an NHL suitable building sitting empty. Copps (in Hamilton) is close, but renovations will bring it up to barley adequate. It is still not a good, long term candidate.

The other thing the NHL needs is someone able to keep the franchise and who wants it in that city.

For now, the NHL is strongly motivated to try to make Phoenix work. The building is there, there is a substantial obligation to the city that built it, and they will go a long ways to try to find the ingredient of a person or group with the ability and desire to make it work there.

Although I feel the climate for the NHL has been affected, Phoenix is a fast growing city with 4 or so million people. Many of those people are Canadians and transplants from the NE. They will buy tickets. It's a matter of good management. Their management has been very bad for a lot of years.

[Ben Kenobi]

The problem for Bettman, is that his 'strategy' is contrary to market forces. He'll be crushed.

Governments don't have the money to keep bailing out losing franchises. Bettman has two choices, make a deal with Balsillie, or watch the Coyotes fold. Phoenix has already said that the money to cover the losses is going to have to come out of league pockets, not from the state, or from Glendale, the money is just not there.

WRT to hockey in general, where's the money going to come? TV revenues are massively down. Year on year, the demographics just get worse.

[Wezil]

A new franchise would thrive anywhere around Toronto. Newmarket was interested at one time.

[notyoueither]

More 'wah, we want it handed to us because we deserve it, damnit!' *stomp* *cry*

Why have they been unsuccessful in their numerous attempts? You can't blame Balsillie, he's just the latest to try. They've had arena, fans, and money for years.

There has never been a single valid bid for a team in Hamilton. Try one valid attempt, and then graduate to multiple.

Try complaining when your bid is valid. Until there is a valid bid, it is hard to see Hamilton, or Winnipeg, or Fly Speck as being too worthy.

Please understand, it is not "my bid". Personally I think Hamilton is a ****hole that I avoid if at all possible. Quite frankly it is highly unlikely I would ever go there to see a game if they had a team.

That however doesn't make me willfully blind to the fact the NHL has been spending a lot of time and effort on what is proving to be a failed experiment while a perfectly viable market literally can't buy a team.

They've never had the owner and the coin acceptable to the NHL. And the building is far less than ideal.

Winnipeg isn't seriously considered because they built their building too small.

Quebec City has never built a new building.

No Canadian City has a building and an owner who would be acceptable to the NHL. Until that changes, I will decline my seat on the great Canadian persecution train. I hope you enjoy the view.