Did you know the Phoenix Coyotes lost $117M in 2007? And $72M last year?

[Ben Kenobi]

Moyes is a creditor of the Phoenix Coyotes. I can't understand how Bettman can just wave his hands and say, "I'm not going to pay you."

The league does not accept Moyes' creative accounting.

Then Moyes owns the assets of the club and should be able to sell to whomever he wants, and that includes Basillie. Bettman can't seize the assets associated with the club unless he pays the creditors.

[notyoueither]

Moyes is the owner of several bankrupt companies with ties to or title of the Coyotes.

He is not a creditor in the normal sense of the word. Only he and his accountants can explain his bookwork.

But you have hit the nail on the head. The NHL's bid specified that Moyes and Gretzky receive nothing from their purchase. The judge rightfully said that it is not their place to decide which unsecured creditors get paid what. That is his (the judge's) job.

The NHL does not have to increase their bid by a single penny. They simply have to remove the conditions and let the unsecureds fight it out. If Baum (the judge) ends up ruling that Moyes and Gretzky are not creditors, the remaining unsecureds will get paid 100%.

Gretzky is a slam dunk. Moyes assigned his personal services contract to the Coyotes in the days leading up to the bankruptcy filing.

Moyes is not as clear, but it is clear that he pillaged the Coyotes by charging them from his other companies. According to numbers from Moyes in the decision, the Coyotes had an operating loss of $107MM dollars in their 2007 year. The richest clubs in the league do not spend $107MM dollars in total for operations. Moyes' claims are a lot of smoke and fraud.

[Ben Kenobi]

The NHL's bid specified that Moyes and Gretzky receive nothing from their purchase. The judge rightfully said that it is not their place to decide which unsecured creditors get paid what. That is his (the judge's) job.

Ok thanks. I thought that was the case. Much appreciated to know I'm not totally out to lunch on this...

Moyes is not as clear, but it is clear that he pillaged the Coyotes by charging them from his other companies. According to numbers from Moyes in the decision, the Coyotes had an operating loss of $107MM dollars in their 2007 year. The richest clubs in the league do not spend $107MM dollars in total for operations. Moyes' claims are a lot of smoke and fraud

I can certainly see it, but it's up to the judge to decide how much and of what, Moyes is entitled to receive as compensation.

[notyoueither]

Then Moyes owns the assets of the club and should be able to sell to whomever he wants, and that includes Basillie. Bettman can't seize the assets associated with the club unless he pays the creditors.

The judge said that is not true.

The league has rights (upheld by many courts in many cases in the US) to decide who may own a franchise. Then there are the complicated issues of rights to decide where they may play.

He granted that even if he accepted Balsille as having a legitimate dispute with this, he (the judge) could not allow him to win the bid because the league's rights could not be protected after the team was moved. It's a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo that I am not explaining well, but it boils down to no joy for Balsille.

Also, Moyes gave up his control when he filed bankruptcy. When you do that you give control to the courts.

Bettman hasn't tried to seize anything. The NHL entered a bid when they became worried that no bid that would see the Coyotes stay in Phoenix would survive to the auction. They did not want the judge faced with Balsille as the only bidder.

[notyoueither]

I can certainly see it, but it's up to the judge to decide how much and of what, Moyes is entitled to receive as compensation.

He's going to end up getting near zero, and he has a bond that will pay the NHL $30MM for their trouble.

[Ben Kenobi]

Bettman hasn't tried to seize anything. The NHL entered a bid when they became worried that no bid that would see the Coyotes stay in Phoenix would survive to the auction. They did not want the judge faced with Balsille as the only bidder.

No, he hasn't but he has no say as to what compensation Moyes is entitled. The problem with this whole agreement is that it is a bad deal for the league, a bad deal for Balsillie and a bad deal for Moyes. Everyone loses. The league wins in the short term (affirmation of ability to choose owners), but they still have to deal with the turd sandwich of the Coyotes and they are out big cash until the Coyote ship gets righted. Balsillie loses in the short term in that he's been "locked out of the club", but he still has his cash, and can legitimately argue in the court of public opinion that the league is not operating under market principles. I don't think we've heard the last of Balsillie, and I think he will eventually get a team.

As for Moyes, rather then getting the cash he needs, he is ****ed right now. Why wouldn't Bettman let Balsillie into the club? Let him move the team, get the cash to fix the Coyotes franchise and reap the profits down the line? I understand his fevent devotion to making Hockey relevant in the US, but things are worse now than before Bettman took over.

[Dinner]

I'll buy them for $0.25.

[Guynemer]

For the same reason that one in Dallas has done quite well, and one in Nashville broke even last year once they got decent ownership.

How is a new owner going to put butts in the seats? There is just no interest in hockey in Arizona; hell, even when they started 21-2 (or something ridiculous like that) several years ago, there was no interest in hockey. And I can't blame them--if you have made a conscious choice to live in the middle of the freaking desert, you probably aren't going to be particularly interested in a sport played on ice.

[notyoueither]

After they moved from Winnipeg their attendance went up.

I think their problems have more to do with many years of not being very good rather than climate. The location of the rink can't help.

[Guynemer]

Well yeah, hot new thing, if it hadn't gone up initially then it would've been shocking. But this is a failed experiment that has been going on for years now. Just because the NHL does well in certain southern markets (Dallas), it doesn't mean it's going to work all over the south. The Coyotes are a ****ing joke.

[Kontiki]

The Islanders may be up for sale soon too. I'm sure Balsillie can take a run at them.

[notyoueither]

Well yeah, hot new thing, if it hadn't gone up initially then it would've been shocking. But this is a failed experiment that has been going on for years now. Just because the NHL does well in certain southern markets (Dallas), it doesn't mean it's going to work all over the south. The Coyotes are a ****ing joke.

From reports, they did well while they played in Scottsdale. The trouble started when they moved into the new building in Glendale and got worse as a team.

The building in Glendale is blamed for a lot of the attendance woes now. However, it is right beside the football stadium. I'd hazard a guess that a winning team would draw people.

I scratch my head why people are offended by the NHL trying to expand their markets. There seems to be a lot of hostility to the very idea.

[notyoueither]

The Islanders may be up for sale soon too. I'm sure Balsillie can take a run at them.

I think he is done like dinner unless he kisses a lot of other owner's asses.

[Riesstiu IV]

Phoenix has an ice hockey team?

[Kontiki]

I think he is done like dinner unless he kisses a lot of other owner's asses.

I agree that his prospects are just bout nil, but I doubt that will stop him from trying.