[serious] Off Topic Moderation Input - Part 2

[ZEE]

I thought this conversation was supposed to be about Rule 4b?

[SlowwHand]

I thought you were saying older people sucked. My mistake. I'm older. I **** up sometimes.

I don't agree with Ben about Gays and unions. I'm really close to accepting a religious ceremony, if it was desired.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. As a Christian, I naturally believe in God. There is no way, none, zip, nada, that I'm going to suggest that God made a mistake in creating Gays. The fairly recently discovered scientific fact of it being genetic, not even a choice (but either one would work) only substantiates what I believe about God.
Ben feels otherwise. That's something that I'm not going to try and "correct". I have my own problems that I want to get fixed. Another thing I've said is that I'm not a "good" Christian. I only care so much whether a person believes in God, or any other opinion.
I'm not an evangelist. It's not my job. I'm sorry. If a person wants to burn in Hell, that's their choice.

[giblets]

If Ben simply believed homosexuality endangered people's souls and he had a duty to warn people, that would be fine. One of the problems with Ben is that he would rather support his beliefs in dishonest or stupid ways than admit that they are just his personal beliefs. And of course he thinks some of his beliefs, despite just being his personal beliefs, should be enforced by the government.

[Asher]

I'm not even talking about Asher, per se. A person, generally, can talk with Asher.
I'm talking about MOBIUS, Drake and even the designated boot lick that goes by DaShi.
Hell, for all I know, they all may be DL's, but that wouldn't even matter. KH could stand to straighten up some, since I'm on a roll.
If you don't like Ben, ignore him, either through restraint or system methods.

I'll give you an example, with the help of Asher. Asher has helped me many times. We certainly don't agree on all things, and as a for instance, if I was going to be a whine bag I could boohoo over his ageist remark, but why?

If that's how he thinks, that's how he thinks. I don't take it personally. It's a statement he made in general terms, so I ignore it. He may include me in his sentiment, but so what?

I'm kind of confused here -- why would you take offense with my ageist comment? I was just saying I don't think children have the same mental capacity as adults, which is why I'm ageist. It has nothing to do with you.

You may not agree with Ben on a single thing, but so what? Maybe it's the veteran in me, that makes me know...he's got the right to whatever he thinks. It doesn't make him right, or wrong. It only means people have the right to express their beliefs. The people that I mentioned earlier are just nasty and mean. Maybe you feel that way about Ben. Evidently so.

I have a feeling you would feel differently if the comments Ben made repeatedly devalued your relationships. It's one thing to say "an opinion is an opinion", it's another thing when his "opinion" is grossly offensive because it's making sweeping value judgements on other people. You have to remember that gays still do not have equal rights. Not everything is rosy. Some people consider us oversensitive for these kinds of issues, but can you really blame us? We live in a society that, by and large, is still "opposed" to us. It's very, very difficult to ignore people like Ben when we have to fight tooth-and-nail to get what we have now.

and I feel I should repeat -- it's not just his bigotedness that bugs the hell out of me. If it was just that alone I could probably just argue a lot with him and be fine with it. It's the fact that he lies deliberately and incessantly and misrepresents others that crosses over the line.

[Asher]

Here's something I find an interesting dichotomy, while we're on it: I like to think of myself as a nice person. A lot of people here would consider me a nice person. I help people out when they need it even if we don't see eye to eye on things. I even helped Agathon with something once (I can't remember what now, some Windows issue when he was on a university PC). I use profanity more than I probably should, I express my disgust more often than I should, but if people actually know me I'm a nice guy.

Ben is the opposite. On the surface, he seems like the nicest guy on this forum. Formal, polite, Flanders-esque. But if you ever actually look at what the man is saying...think of the ideas behind what he's actively promoting...witness with how little respect he treats the fellow members of this site with his intellectual dishonesty...it's all a big song and dance. And he's got the lot of you fooled.

Make no mistake: Ben is a hateful man. He hates homosexuals, he wants to see them stripped of many rights already afforded to them in Canada. He has said, in polite words and passive-aggressive implication, that my 7-year relationship is either a fraud or an impossibility. He's accused posters of recklessly endangering the lives of others by volunteering to donate their disease-free blood. He very clearly does not think homosexuals are on the same level of humanity as heterosexuals.

How can that not bother any educated person? I look at Apolyton OTF like a neighborhood pub -- some people should just be asked to leave. It's not a freedom of speech issue, it's a private establishment with a certain sense of decency.

[Asher]

Yea, Ben certainly has unsavory views on things, but he is never mean. Not like some other posters.

I guess it depends what you consider mean.

You might think calling someone a poo-head is mean.

But let me assure you, that is not even in the same stratosphere as comments Ben makes. Ben's said repeatedly gay men do not engage in long-term monogamous relationships. I am in a long term monogamous relationship. Can you figure out the implication, Ozzy?

Which is more mean?

Look beyond the superficial, please. Ben actively campaigns to ensure I'm not able to marry my loved one. Is that not mean?

But I call him stupid. I'm the mean one.

I genuinely feel sorry for people who mistake politeness for niceness, and fail to take into account the ideas behind seemingly polite words. The words Ben utters on here are, as far as I'm concerned, some of the most vile and mean things anyone has ever said on the site. But he does it with a smile and without profanity, so airheads all over this forum chew their gum and think "golly gee, what a nice fine gentleman this guy is". Get a clue.

I apologize for being mean.

[OzzyKP]

Yea, Ben certainly has unsavory views on things, but he is never mean. Not like some other posters. We certainly don't do enough to handle personal attacks, meanness and other problems here in OT, but no one should be punished for having unpopular views. Even if the main problem isn't Ben's views but his "dishonest" posting style, I agree with Sloww, the best response is to just ignore him. Instead everyone goes out of their way to egg him on. If he gets under your skin, just ignore him and this place will be more peaceful.

[SlowwHand]

I'm not even talking about Asher, per se. A person, generally, can talk with Asher.
I'm talking about MOBIUS, Drake and even the designated boot lick that goes by DaShi.
Hell, for all I know, they all may be DL's, but that wouldn't even matter. KH could stand to straighten up some, since I'm on a roll.
If you don't like Ben, ignore him, either through restraint or system methods.

I'll give you an example, with the help of Asher. Asher has helped me many times. We certainly don't agree on all things, and as a for instance, if I was going to be a whine bag I could boohoo over his ageist remark, but why?
If that's how he thinks, that's how he thinks. I don't take it personally. It's a statement he made in general terms, so I ignore it. He may include me in his sentiment, but so what? He still is decent to me, so why would I hold it too hard against him?
You may not agree with Ben on a single thing, but so what? Maybe it's the veteran in me, that makes me know...he's got the right to whatever he thinks. It doesn't make him right, or wrong. It only means people have the right to express their beliefs. The people that I mentioned earlier are just nasty and mean. Maybe you feel that way about Ben. Evidently so.
I'm just saying that if you're going to bash Ben, there are others.

[Hauldren Collider]

Well said jrabbit. It isn't the bigotry, it's the dishonesty.

[-Jrabbit]

The thing that frosts me is Ben's intellectual dishonesty -- the outright lying, and (especially) his practice "moving the goalposts" rather than facing up to it when confronted with his own falsehoods and errors (of math, omission, logic, etc.).

He has a streak of paranoia as well, and it extends beyond religion and politics. He was a newbie on our Poly fantasy football last year and was equally combative, going so far as to accuse me (as commissioner) of being out to get him. It's a bit odd, because he used to play well with others back when we played Civ2 succession games together.

Regarding Plomp's response -- Ben's nimble regarding the letter of the law, it's true. But I can live with his opinions, his religion and his politics, though I hate them all.

Personally, I think Ben should be banned for a day or two, for cause, just to prove to everyone that the possibility actually exists.

But hey, I was raised Catholic, and some of my best friends are Bushies, some of whom lean Tea Party. I can be tolerant. They can be... well, wrong.

[giblets]

I have a dream:

Equal rights

[giblets]

I do admit to having particular bias against them. For instance, I don't find them attractive and I don't **** them. But we all have our flaws.

But you do support their right to get married and work in factories, right? Only a total bigot would oppose child labor.

[Asher]

How is Asher bigoted toward children?

I do admit to having particular bias against them. For instance, I don't find them attractive and I don't **** them. But we all have our flaws.

[Asher]

You are a bigot toward youth and toward Christians. But you somehow don't think that counts.

I really hope you're joking about the youth thing. I know you're not, but I still hold out hope.

I'm not bigoted against Christians. I troll a lot about them specifically targeted to Ben, because it's Ben. But I'm on very good with most (if not all) other Christians on this site. Most people here are pretty astute about this kind of thing, but apparently not everyone...

[giblets]

How is Asher bigoted toward children?