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What's wrong with (private) religious discrimination/prejudice?

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  • What's wrong with (private) religious discrimination/prejudice?

    It occurred to me recently that given our current cultural norms, there really isn't anything wrong with (private) discrimination or prejudice on religious grounds. This, of course, does not apply to the state, in whose eyes all are to be held equal, but only to the morality of an individual in a suitable setting (i.e., when he is not acting as an agent of the state) discriminating against or being prejudiced either in favour of or against a man of some religion, because of his religion.

    It may sound preposterous now, but before commenting, please hear me out.

    A religion is not something that we are "born" with, any more than we are "born" with a political affiliation. Both are things we pick up during the course of our life. It just so happens that religion is often a little more closely tied up with our self-identity, but anyone who has seen ardent supporters of some party knows that a political position, too, can be equally central to identity. So religious beliefs aren't "special" in that sense.

    Furthermore, a religion is not something we cannot change. The same way that a man may change their political affiliation, style of dress, philosophical positions, and so on, so may he change his religious beliefs. In fact, there is nothing inherently "special" about religious beliefs. When you take them apart, you realise that they are a mixture of philosophical positions and claims about the nature of the world.

    The funny thing about these beliefs is that there are contexts in which open discrimination against holders of such positions is not only accepted, it is the norm. In philosophy, for instance, a group of people holding a certain position may not include among themselves others who do not hold that position. In different universities, philosophy departments have different criteria for selecting who may join them, and many can and do discriminate based on the philosophical positions held by the applicant. Yet none would deny them this right – it is, after all, what keeps different traditions and different points of view alive.

    In a political context, this is even more true. A man may discriminate all he wishes on the basis of political affiliation. A Republican may not be welcome at a gathering of Democrats, or vice versa. Further, none would fault an employer for rejecting a job-seeker for being a supporter of the National Socialists. Nor is condemnation of such National Socialists – and mind you, this is condemnation of them just because of their beliefs – looked down upon in modern society. It is, in fact, the norm, and anyone who does not do so is putting himself at risk of facing the same censure.

    Both of these instances of discrimination and prejudice (the National Socialist is judged purely on the basis of his subscription of National Socialism) are acceptable to us because we know that when a man says that he holds a certain philosophical position, or is a supporter of some ideology, it tells us something about him. We assume that a philosopher holding a certain position on the issue of, say, free will, will either fit or not fit well within our group. We assume that the National Socialist is a supporter of racist behaviour, that he considers entire demographic groups as inferior and fit for extermination, and so on.

    Thus, in neither case do we think the discrimination and prejudice inappropriate. Why, then, is religious discrimination and prejudice so looked-down upon? I fail to see any real difference between discriminating against a man because he hold some position or be partisan to some ideology, and discriminating against him because he hold some religious position. What is a religious position, after all, but a mixture of philosophical positions and some political and empirical claims?

    It's not as if someone is born with a religion which is encoded in their genes and forever unchangeable, like race. Race is a characteristic which a person has no control over, and further, which does not change enough about a person to use as a basis for discrimination. It can thus be said that racial discrimination is an immoral thing to do. This is not the case with religious discrimination – a person can change his beliefs as and when he chooses to, and like all other beliefs, religious beliefs, too, are acquired, not inborn.

    What, then, is wrong with discriminating and being prejudiced – as a private citizen, NOT an agent of the state – on religious grounds?

  • #2
    I wish I could be biased on religious grounds... unfortunately Christians are just as likely to be cruel/liars/hypocrites/etc as anyone else .

    I do admit to be prejudiced against Randians though.

    JM
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post
      I wish I could be biased on religious grounds... unfortunately Christians are just as likely to be cruel/liars/hypocrites/etc as anyone else .

      JM

      True. It's the realisation that everyone sucks that stops me from being prejudiced. This is because a person's religious label does not carry much information about that person any longer.

      Assuming that it did, however - and I'm not talking about general suckiness, but specifically about beliefs - then would there be anything wrong with prejudice?





      Another thing just occurred to me - in this context, I question the use of the word "prejudice". Religious "prejudice" isn't. This is because the judgement of the person is not being made without anything being known about him. We already know some things about that person - the things which can be inferred by his admission of belief in some religion. And this is something he has himself told us - it's not even as if we're snooping around with his private life.

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      • #4
        The OP is an example of the type of lazy, shallow thinking I've come to expect from you, aneeshm

        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
        Stadtluft Macht Frei
        Killing it is the new killing it
        Ultima Ratio Regum

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        • #5
          To clarify further why I think that religious "prejudice" really isn't, I'll take a very contrived example which I hope nonetheless suffices.

          Suppose that there is some religious group which believes that cannibalism and eating stolen babies is the way to heaven. Every year, every family of this religion steals a baby from somewhere and in a ceremony to their "God", sacrifices it and eats it. It then proceeds to send the mutilated remains of the baby back to the family from which it was stolen,because it is their belief that unless someone grieves for the said baby, that year's ceremony will not yield fruit - the salt in their tears of grief provides spice and taste to their God's consumption of their sacrifice.

          Would I be justified in discriminating against/being prejudiced against practitioners of said religion?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
            The OP is an example of the type of lazy, shallow thinking I've come to expect from you, aneeshm

            At the moment, a religious affiliation of a man does not indicate anything much about him, so prejudice is not justified.

            However, in a world where it were indicative and informative, would it be?

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            • #7
              Much better. And yes.
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

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              • #8
                What, then, is wrong with discriminating and being prejudiced – as a private citizen, NOT an agent of the state – on religious grounds?
                The two aren't quite the same thing. 'Discriminating' means to draw out a distinction between two things. You can discriminate between two religions, heck for the purposes of identification, it's a requirement, to discriminate between religion A and religion B. Prejudice, means forming an opinion of someone without taking the time to understand them. Someone can discriminate without being prejudiced, but they cannot be prejudiced and not discriminate. I would argue it's ok to discriminate in the sense that 'religion A is different from religion B', but it is not ok to be prejudiced. I think it's ok to say, "I know these people, and I think their beliefs suck" but saying, "all people of this religion are child molesters."

                That beings said, I would argue that we are free to associate with whomever we want. A church can exclude anyone who does not believe, although in practice very few do so. Most choose to welcome everyone to participate in the worship service, although some, like Catholics, only permit members to take communion.

                I would go so far to say that a store owner has every right to choose not to hire people of a religion, or to choose to hire people of only their religion.

                As for not being special, you might not be able to change your race, but your race doesn't matter after you die.
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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                • #9
                  If there's a religion out there in favor of exterminating six million Jews, yes, most people would pretty much expect you to discriminate against that faith as you would against Nazism. Discrimination against Scientology is already pretty widespread and without shame, on account of their criminal tendencies.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                    I would go so far to say that a store owner has every right to choose not to hire people of a religion, or to choose to hire people of only their religion.
                    Typical bigoted thinking that we've come to expect from you.

                    Fortunately in the US, bigoted crap like that is illegal, and you would be vulnerable to being sued and eventually would probably lose your business.
                    It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                    RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                      As for not being special, you might not be able to change your race, but your race doesn't matter after you die.
                      Nor does your religion.
                      Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                      Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                      We've got both kinds

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                      • #12
                        Good one-liner.
                        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                        Stadtluft Macht Frei
                        Killing it is the new killing it
                        Ultima Ratio Regum

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by aneeshm View Post
                          To clarify further why I think that religious "prejudice" really isn't, I'll take a very contrived example which I hope nonetheless suffices.

                          Suppose that there is some religious group which believes that cannibalism and eating stolen babies is the way to heaven. Every year, every family of this religion steals a baby from somewhere and in a ceremony to their "God", sacrifices it and eats it. It then proceeds to send the mutilated remains of the baby back to the family from which it was stolen,because it is their belief that unless someone grieves for the said baby, that year's ceremony will not yield fruit - the salt in their tears of grief provides spice and taste to their God's consumption of their sacrifice.

                          Would I be justified in discriminating against/being prejudiced against practitioners of said religion?


                          Now suppose there was a relgion that supported executing anyone who tries to leave the religion. Or a religion that supports mutilation of its followers? Or a religion that likes to stone people to death for crimes against its arbitrary bronze age morality?


                          What if most Baybeatingists would not follow the teachings of their religion and would try to rationalize it away? Claimin that Babyeatingism is a religion of love or peace or whatever and that people who really eat babies aren't really Babyeaters.

                          If it is then still right to be prejudiced against them then isn't it logical that it is ok to (in our world) be a bigot when it comes to Muslims and to a lesser extent Jews and Christians (since they ignore what their religion actually says more than the Muslims)?
                          Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                          The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                          The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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                          • #14
                            Where does Christianity say to stone people to death?

                            Remember the story of Christ and Mary. Christianity has a central idea that we are all sinful and deserving of death. But that God through Christ has redeemed us.

                            By the way, from that post I wonder if you are as bad at philosophy as physics?

                            JM
                            Jon Miller-
                            I AM.CANADIAN
                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                            • #15
                              Some Christians place a clear emphasis on the old testament when it potentially conflicts with the new testament, e.g. the God Hates Fags people.
                              <p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures </p>

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