Windows 7 to ship without a web browser in Europe

[Sir Og]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Explorer

One word: Spatial

The spatial feature was default for a very short time. There is a reason for that: It's not such a great idea.

Anyway the fact is that all windowses had file managers with very similar interface. Folder structure on the left and folder content on the right designed for work with a mouse. That is how it was in the early nineties and that is how it is today.

When people became comfortable with the mouse interface they stopped bothering with other file managers and stuck to the one that came with windows.

NC was always a better file manager but casual users did not care for the advanced features of NC. They just did not need them. WE was good enough for moving or renaming files so once they became comfortable using it they just had no incentive to look for a different file manager.

[Asher]

Many believe that the browser is becoming the operating system. That seems to be why Microsoft released IE in the first place -- to kill that movement.

This makes no sense. How would IE kill the movement?

MS didn't want to kill it, they just wanted to be sure they were a player in the market if/when it happens. That's the same reason the Xbox exists. Sony trumpeted the PS2 as a "living room computer", which spooked MS and got them to rush head-first into that market to head that off.

You are confusing being competitive in potential emerging technologies with wanting to kill all of them.

[Asher]

The spatial feature was default for a very short time. There is a reason for that: It's not such a great idea.

Anyway the fact is that all windowses had file managers with very similar interface. Folder structure on the left and folder content on the right designed for work with a mouse. That is how it was in the early nineties and that is how it is today.

When people became comfortable with the mouse interface they stopped bothering with other file managers and stuck to the one that came with windows.

NC was always a better file manager but casual users did not care for the advanced features of NC. They just did not need them. WE was good enough for moving or renaming files so once they became comfortable using it they just had no incentive to look for a different file manager.

The simple fact is pre-Windows 95, Norton Commander was almost a de facto standard. post-Windows 95, it wasn't.

99.9% of people use Windows Explorer for file management now.

[Jon Miller]

I was a user of Norton Commander and didn't touch it after Windows 95 came out.

Just one persons experience.

JM

[Sir Og]

The simple fact is pre-Windows 95, Norton Commander was almost a de facto standard. post-Windows 95, it wasn't.

99.9% of people use Windows Explorer for file management now.

You are probably right. This is also the time when most people started playing 3D shooters with keyboard and mouse instead of keyboard only.

All I am saying is that the reason for this change is not that WE was so much different and better that win 3.11's file manager. (as compared to NC) IMO

[DanS]

This makes no sense. How would IE kill the movement?

Embrace, extend, extinguish, and then sit on the product. Microsoft did very well using this strategy on IE for several years.

[Asher]

Embrace, extend, extinguish, and then sit on the product.

I see you've learned some Slashdot buzzphrases.

IE didn't embrace and extend anything, unless you're awkwardly referring to HTML/CSS standards which is misplaced in this discussion.

IE existed because Netscape was making noise about the network operating system. They were growing buddy buddy with Sun which was talking about Java as well. There was a very real threat that Netscape could become the new Windows if the net-based app market came to be.

IE was made to ensure they wouldn't lose that market. It was essentially hedging their bets. The exact same logic is behind the Xbox and Zune entrances to the market, to varying successes. The Xbox was to hedge their bets against Sony taking over the "living room computer" market, and the Zune is their attempt to hedge their bets against companies like Apple from dominating the mobile computing field (which is considerably less successful for MS).

But this should not be a surprise to anyone who follows the market. IE, Xbox, and Zune do not exist to kill the markets, they exist to ensure MS doesn't miss a Window of opportunity for future technology trends.

IE didn't kill Netscape. Netscape killed itself.

Do you remember?

[DanS]

I see you've learned some Slashdot buzzphrases

No, that buzzphrase is from Microsoft itself, as told in the Netscape monopoly suit.

[Asher]

No, that buzzphrase is from Microsoft itself, as told in the Netscape monopoly suit.

I'm referring to your misappropriation of the phrase. It very specifically is a term that applies to standards, not products.

[Aeson]

IE didn't kill Netscape. Netscape killed itself.

Do you remember?

Yah, the horror... looks like standard UI settings for most of the current browsers.

At least Navigator (3.1?) let you fully modify the UI. You could put all the functionality on one line IIRC. (I'm not sure if you could put it on one side or the other?) Interestingly enough, IE 6 was the best recent browser in that regard, until MS went with the barrage of buttons, tool bars, and tab bars, some of which are not modifiable... to go from better than Firefox in that regard, to worse, with IE 7. (The only thing worth sacrificing vertical viewing for from that list is tab bars. Though I'd still love to have tabs along the sides instead of top, especially for widescreen computers.)

[self biased]

I was a user of Norton Commander and didn't touch it after Windows 95 came out.

Just one persons experience.

JM

mine too.

[Ben Kenobi]

- Etiquette issues (Apple has already shown it's willing to exploit its update mechanisms to push its software like Safari on Windows computers, this would be trivial to do for any browser included with Windows during the install)

This.

I still can't see why people have an issue. It's very quick to set things up with mozilla if you desire it. Installing windows is hard enough already, I don't want the process broken because of third party software.

I'd appreciate it much more if the OS also didn't come bundled with Norton. Windows doesn't need norton to sell itself.

Also, one thing I'd like to see bundled in would be some form of dos emulator. I'm surprised windows hasn't incorporated it already. There are many legacy programs which just don't work with the modern systems. This would be one way for MS to maintain backwards compatibility while at the same time retaining the advantages of the break with dos.

[self biased]

did ben just say something that made sense again?

[Colonâ„¢]

July 24, 2009 11:52 AM PDT
Microsoft offers EU 'browser ballot' compromise

In a reversal on Friday, Microsoft said it is now open to allowing users in Europe to select competing browsers in Windows 7.

Essentially, Microsoft is offering to put into Windows a way for consumers to easily install a rival to Internet Explorer. PC makers, as they can today, could still install a rival browser and could also disable Internet Explorer, if they choose.

"Under our new proposal, among other things, European consumers who buy a new Windows PC with Internet Explorer set as their default browser would be shown a 'ballot screen' from which they could, if they wished, easily install competing browsers from the Web," Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith said in a statement.

As first reported by CNET News earlier this month, Microsoft had hoped to comply with Europe's objections to the inclusion of a browser in Windows simply by removing the browser entirely from Windows 7. However, the European Union indicated that such a move might not satisfy its concerns.

"Under the proposal, Windows 7 would include Internet Explorer, but the proposal recognizes the principle that consumers should be given a free and effective choice of Web browser, and sets out a means--the ballot screen--by which Microsoft believes that can be achieved," the commission said in a statement. "In addition, (computer makers) would be able to install competing Web browsers, set those as default and disable Internet Explorer should they so wish. The Commission welcomes this proposal, and will now investigate its practical effectiveness in terms of ensuring genuine consumer choice."

For now--and until the EU accepts Microsoft's proposal--the software maker said it will continue to ship only the browserless "E" version in Europe.

Opera votes for the ballot
Hakon Wium Lie, who as CEO of Opera Software has been outspoken about the IE antitrust issue, was delighted with the proposal.

"It's a happy day for us," Lie said. "We certainly think the ballot is good news and think it will give users a genuine choice."

What's not yet clear is what browsers will appear on the ballot list. Naturally, Lie is concerned about that matter.

"The rules for getting onto the ballot will be something the EU will watch closely," Lie said. It wouldn't be a good idea "to limit it to only one or two, but exactly how many is a good question."

Mozilla, which oversees development of the open-source Firefox browser, was more cautious.

"We're interested in seeing the specifics of the proposal that Microsoft is making and until that point it's hard to have a definitive reaction," said Chief Executive John Lilly in a statement. "It is, of course, a good development that Microsoft will make changes to allow users to choose their own default Web browser, as today's browser mediates so much of our online experience."

Mozilla also had questions about criteria to be selected for the ballot, what terms Microsoft might impose to be part of it, and whether Microsoft will update versions of Windows already running with the ballot.

User headaches
The planned browserless version would create a number of headaches for users, including forcing them to try to download a competing browser without having Internet Explorer to do so, as well as making it more difficult to upgrade to Windows 7 than it would otherwise be. For example, moving from Vista to Windows 7 "E" would require a new installation of the operating system, while users elsewhere can just upgrade their existing Windows installation.

"While the Commission solicits public comment and considers this proposal, we are committed to ensuring that we are in full compliance with European law and our obligations under the 2007 Court of First Instance ruling," Smith said. "PCs manufacturers building machines for the European market will continue to be required to ship 'E' versions of Windows 7 until such time that the Commission fully reviews our proposals and determines whether they satisfy our obligations under European law.

Microsoft is also committing to "a public undertaking designed to promote interoperability between third party products and a number of Microsoft products, including Windows, Windows Server, Office, Exchange, and SharePoint."

The software maker faces a separate complaint over Office.

"Like the Internet Explorer proposal, the interoperability measures we are offering involve significant change by Microsoft," Smith said. "They build on the Interoperability Principles announced by Microsoft in February 2008, which were also based on extensive discussions with the Commission, and they include new steps including enforceable warranty commitments."

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10295334-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1001_3-0-5

[Krill]

Boo. I want them to strip out IE ffs.