Windows 7 to ship without a web browser in Europe

[Asher]

I think you're making mountains out of molehills. It would take almost no effort for Microsoft to facilitate downloads and installation of the top dozen (or whatever) browsers, listed in random order.

I think you do not understand the software development and testing process.

I think you do not understand the legal process.

You are asking MS to add another testing cycle to a product with testing cycles that last around six months. You're asking MS to alter a product that's been code complete for months already. This will incur a delay of at least 8 months in its release if it is to be tested. Just stop for a minute and think about the implications of fundamentally changing the install process. Not only the testing, but localization in over one hundred languages and legal clearance for its actions in over a hundred country's various laws. Documentation would also need to be updated and translated as well. This is not a simple task.

Further still, you are asking MS to maintain a list of competitors browsers and download sources, and then write code that implicitly trusts code hosted on OTHER SERVERS they do not control...and more importantly servers controlled by their competitors, and install that blindly on new Windows installs. This is legally, and technically, dangerous.

[DanS]

You're way exaggerating. First off, we're talking about just the EU, not the rest of the countries in the UN. Secondly, we're talking about a separate installation package just to download and boot the browsers' installation package. It has nothing to do with the OS itself and is not a tough coding job. Lastly, the cost of maintaining a list of competitors and facilitating installation of their software is just the cost of doing business as a monopoly.

[Colonâ„¢]

As history has shown, Europeans are both technologically inept and massively stupid.

You're out of line Asher. Europeans invented the browser along with the WWW. Without us, you'd be trolling mailing lists instead of forums.

[Dinner]

Meh, it was an obvious step and I'm sure other people were working on it as well. Besides, both had extensive backgrounds in the US with Cailliau attending university in the US and Berners-Lee living in Boston and working at MIT.

[RGBVideo]

Shipping every Windows copy with a browser enables the user to choose between ALL browsers.

Shipping Windows without one means users are restricted in their choice to whatever they have available on physical mediums already. Restricts choice!

this

You guys are showing why Europe is on a steep decline.

yes. this is ****ing stupid, every EU-area citizen gets to pay the same for a neutered product. there's no reason to blame microsoft for this, they're doing exactly what the european parliament has required them to do

[RGBVideo]

What was the purpose of this?

knee-jerk anti-corporatism

"microsoft is a big business, so it must be a bad business, now let's try to come up with ways to punish it"

[Riesstiu IV]

You're out of line Asher. Europeans invented the browser along with the WWW. Without us, you'd be trolling mailing lists instead of forums.

Your a goddamn lying Belgian. Al Gore invented those things.

[Asher]

You're out of line Asher. Europeans invented the browser along with the WWW. Without us, you'd be trolling mailing lists instead of forums.

I prefer mailing lists.

Other strategies:
- Tim Berners-Lee's contribution is overstated.
- TBL's nationality is English, he is not part of the EU nor is he European
- TBL emigrated to America
- The first real web browser was NCSA Mosaic, which was certainly not Euro

[Asher]

You're way exaggerating. First off, we're talking about just the EU, not the rest of the countries in the UN.

This doesn't matter at all.

Secondly, we're talking about a separate installation package just to download and boot the browsers' installation package.

This makes no sense. How does this package magically get onto the computer if it is not installed?

Lastly, the cost of maintaining a list of competitors and facilitating installation of their software is just the cost of doing business as a monopoly.

They're not a monopoly, as Apple's ads clearly indicate.

We've all been over this before. IE's marketshare is in rapid decline, all of the comments about IE being unstoppable and unfairly bundled were made by epic retards and I was very clear about that years ago when they said it. Build a better browser, and people will use it...they did.

I'm calling you out on this, Dan. You can continue arguing with me on this if you wish but it's be fruitless as you're completely wrong and out of your comfort zone in arguing about software development procedures.

Anything that alters the installation of Windows at this point WILL DELAY THE OS SIGNIFICANTLY. You do not seem to comprehend the legal headaches there are associated with MS linking to sites they do not control to install apps they did not write and can't predict what they'll be. Not to mention the issues of putting this through another test cycle and getting this translated and the updated documentation.

It is a herculean effort to put in a huge release of Windows and that's precisely why there's a 6 month delay between Code Complete/RTM and actual release. The last new features to Windows 7 were completed half a year ago at this point! And you're not even talking about simply adding a feature, you want something to be designed, implemented, tested, coordinated with all of the various makers, legal hurdles cleared, translations done, documentation updated, then tens of millions of discs manufacturers and OEMs updated with the latest procedures so they can build and test their images prior to the Windows 7 launch.

This is not a tiny thing! It's massive.

[notyoueither]

You're way exaggerating. First off, we're talking about just the EU, not the rest of the countries in the UN. Secondly, we're talking about a separate installation package just to download and boot the browsers' installation package. It has nothing to do with the OS itself and is not a tough coding job. Lastly, the cost of maintaining a list of competitors and facilitating installation of their software is just the cost of doing business as a monopoly.

You're wrong.

Asher is right.

Opening up an OS installation process to outside influences is not a good thing.

[BeBMan]

- TBL's nationality is English, he is not part of the EU nor is he European

The UK is in the EU. Nobody knows why, but they're in.

[Sir Og]

The tool for downloading browsers does not have to be a part of the OS. They can make a small tool for downloading some of the more popular browsers that has a HUGE disclaimer that Microsoft is not responsible for any damages, bla, bla.. This tool can be put on the installation CD and run after the installation if you want to "risk" it.

I don't say that MS should do this. I'm just saying it's not such a big deal. It does not need to be part of the OS installation. If they want to they can do this relatively easy (I doubt it would be more than 500 lines of code)

[DanS]

Sorry, Asher. According to the US legal system, Microsoft has been declared a monopoly in OS. IE's market share is immaterial to this discussion. Microsoft is using its monopoly position in OS to put its hand on the scales in the browser market. That's illegal. Microsoft should have been crushed by the Bush administration on this score, but the Bush administration just loved them some monopoly. So now the EU is doing the right thing.

They've got 5 months until release. Time to get cracking on implementing the installer. The installer can be part of the first OS update if they don't want to reopen the main release.

[CerberusIV]

Get some perspective here - no one is going to sell computers in Europe without a browser installed alongside the OS. The manufacturers will simply install the browser of their choice alongside the Windows OS. They will install whatever browser they get a good deal on, whether it is IE or Firefox or Google Chrome.

Whre this will cause a problem is that the installed browser will probably work like the Google toolbar (my pet hate in my work) which persists in trying to run a search, rather than open the router page, even when there is no internet connection. So when the call goes through to the ISP tech support line it will run like this -

Customer - I can't get online with my new computer.
Agent - Open your web browser and type the router IP address into the address bar.
C - There is no address bar.
A - Then you will have to download and install a browser that does have an address bar.
C - But I can't get online to download anything.
A - That's your problem, I can't help you until you get a proper browser. Thank you for your call.

Happy days - fortunately I will be doing a different job from next month.

[KrazyHorse]

They've got 5 months until release. Time to get cracking on implementing the installer. The installer can be part of the first OS update if they don't want to reopen the main release.

This is ****ing retarded. There's already a browser installer on Windows releases. It's called "IE".