Only in Texas: Grandma Tasered

[Wezil]

She could have been killed. Despite the asinine claims of Taser International these devices kill people. I suspect a senior would be at even higher risk.

[KrazyHorse]

My reaction to that would depend on the force he was using to arrest her. If it was him playing linebacker then he would be in the wrong. If he gently took her arm, pulled it behind her back to cuff her and her sad, brittle bones snapped then it would be fine by me.

There is no reason that her arrest had to be as violent as it was. The cop could have subdued her with a fraction of his strength. Dropping her to the floor with a taser jolt was far more likely to injure her than pushing her over the hood would have been.

By the way, the fact that you think the cop would have needed a ****ing baton is pathetic. I'm a 29 year-old man in pretty good physical condition, and I MIGHT have been able to resist that cop, unarmed for 20 or 30 seconds. He probably would have had to take me down roughly in order to arrest me. Use of the taser on me, if I'd shown the same level of aggressiveness as the woman in that video would have been marginally justified (mainly because I might be strong enough to push a scuffle into the roadway, which would be quite dangerous). Using on the old woman was a sad comment on how far from common sense we've allowed the police to operate.

[KrazyHorse]

As it stands now, she was uninjured. What's the problem?

You're a ****wit.

a) Falling down like that could easily have injured her
b) There is harm done by subjecting somebody to tasing which is independent of any physical injury which may result. Or do you think that cops should be randomly allowed to tase people for laughs because no injury results?

[Lorizael]

Or do you think that cops should be randomly allowed to tase people for laughs because no injury results?

I'd be okay with this, but only if it were done for laughs.

[DinoDoc]

By the way, the fact that you think the cop would have needed a ****ing baton is pathetic.

Why? The question was what would have happened if the cop had not had a tazer. I responded with the next rung up on the use of force continuum.

[SlowwHand]

It was a rhetorical question. He didn't really want to know.

[KrazyHorse]

Why? The question was what would have happened if the cop had not had a tazer. I responded with the next rung up on the use of force continuum.

Your logic is faulty. In all likelihood the police officer would have used his hands if the taser had not been available. If you think he would actually have used a baton on her then you're dumber than I gave you credit for.

The fact is that the taser has become an accepted response to any form of resistance (even passive, by the way; tasers have been used to coerce cooperation from suspects who are already cuffed and who are not attempting to flee or to attack officers, and this use has not been struck down by the courts yet) precisely because it doesn't leave any marks like a good old truncheon does. So there is far less hesitation to use it than there is to use a baton.

[Timexwatch]

Weezil:

After the recent murder of a polish immigrant by RCMP using Tasers at Vancouver airport the use of these devices is coming under stricter control.

Tasers were always "sold" to the public as a preferable alternative to firearms. If Tasers did not exist would grandma have been a candidate for shooting?

Tazers are not 'alternatives to firearms' because they, by and large, are not likely to kill you. They'd be more akin to using OC spray, takedowns and pain compliance. In addition, 'deadly force' is just that- deadly. You don't use your firearm to subdue a suspect unless there is imminent threat of serious bodily harm or that you suspect that they may be carrying a weapon (gun/knife/etc.). And Grandma wouldn't have been a candidate for a shooting; for police it's not a binary choice between no force and using deadly force.


DinoDoc:

No. He would have just had to have gone higher on the use of force continuum and beat her with a baton.

Mmmmmmmm....probably not unless she started to assault the officer. He probably would have either OC'd her if he had it, or would've used 'hard hands'/physical manipulation to produce compliance through pain.

Why? The question was what would have happened if the cop had not had a tazer. I responded with the next rung up on the use of force continuum.

Just because he doesn't have a tazer doesn't mean he has to escalate. There are other tools and tactics that can be used.


KH

My reaction to that would depend on the force he was using to arrest her. If it was him playing linebacker then he would be in the wrong. If he gently took her arm, pulled it behind her back to cuff her and her sad, brittle bones snapped then it would be fine by me.

There is no reason that her arrest had to be as violent as it was. The cop could have subdued her with a fraction of his strength. Dropping her to the floor with a taser jolt was far more likely to injure her than pushing her over the hood would have been.

While I agree that he could've gone hands on to arrest her, and done it rather easily, I'm sure in the back of his mind he was thinking "if Grandma breaks her arm while I'm trying to handcuff her, it's going to be a colossal ****ing headache" and that a short shock to induce compliance would be better for everyone. And given the choice between a painful shock that lasts a few seconds and then it's done vs. a potential fracture of the arm/wrist, dislocation, etc. that most people would take the zap. And if he had to spray her instead of zapping her, that would produce hours of misery for her.

By the way, the fact that you think the cop would have needed a ****ing baton is pathetic. I'm a 29 year-old man in pretty good physical condition, and I MIGHT have been able to resist that cop, unarmed for 20 or 30 seconds. He probably would have had to take me down roughly in order to arrest me. Use of the taser on me, if I'd shown the same level of aggressiveness as the woman in that video would have been marginally justified (mainly because I might be strong enough to push a scuffle into the roadway, which would be quite dangerous). Using on the old woman was a sad comment on how far from common sense we've allowed the police to operate.

I agree, using a baton would not have been an appropriate use of force in this instance. Active resistance is the term that would best describe what Grandma was engaging in, and that doesn't call for the baton. However, brandishing the baton in order to produce compliance might have been ok, depending on policy. Seeing the baton come out and snap to attention usually gets a reaction out of people.

[Wezil]

Weezil:


Tazers are not 'alternatives to firearms' because they, by and large, are not likely to kill you. They'd be more akin to using OC spray, takedowns and pain compliance. In addition, 'deadly force' is just that- deadly. You don't use your firearm to subdue a suspect unless there is imminent threat of serious bodily harm or that you suspect that they may be carrying a weapon (gun/knife/etc.). And Grandma wouldn't have been a candidate for a shooting; for police it's not a binary choice between no force and using deadly force.

That is not how they were sold to the public in this country.

"Tasers = good because now we will have a non-lethal alternative to the firearm" was the position. "alternative" being the condition that was subsequently abused.

[Ben Kenobi]

They are non lethal.

What happens when you zap someone high on ice?

[KrazyHorse]

While I agree that he could've gone hands on to arrest her, and done it rather easily, I'm sure in the back of his mind he was thinking "if Grandma breaks her arm while I'm trying to handcuff her, it's going to be a colossal ****ing headache" and that a short shock to induce compliance would be better for everyone. And given the choice between a painful shock that lasts a few seconds and then it's done vs. a potential fracture of the arm/wrist, dislocation, etc. that most people would take the zap. And if he had to spray her instead of zapping her, that would produce hours of misery for her.

a) I understand what might have induced the cop to use the taser. But her dropping to the floor like a sack of bricks could easily have led to a fractured hip.

b) I don't think the cop should be cashiered or anything. Cops are human beings and can make mistakes, especially under pressure. I do think that the attitude that all taser use is justified needs to change. Give him a few headaches, force him to attend a use of force workshop etc. Make sure the rest of the department knows that what he did (even if it's not a horrible example of brutality) isn't quite acceptable. Show that video as part of training. The department putting up a united front and claiming that the cop did nothing wrong:

i) Just pisses off civvies like me, and makes us trust the cops less
ii) Doesn't move attitudes forward inside the department

If there's a video floating around with (as I hypothesized) an adult man in good shape offering a similar level of resistance then I think that should also be shown to demonstrate the point at which the taser becomes the best option.