Europe is Revolting

[Patroklos]

Wrong, the USSR never invaded the West (at least not when it hadn't been invaded first) while the West invaded the USSR twice, three times if we count the Polish invasion in 1919.

I can understand how you might forget about Finland, you probably forgot about it while calculating your statistics in the millions.

Soviet Union invades Poland (1939) and Finland.

Germany invades the Soviet Union.

The Polish-Soviet war is a wash, no formal frontier was established at Versailles.

(at least not when it hadn't been invaded first)

This part warrants repeating. We all know the Poles were asking for it in 1939, right?

[chequita guevara]

That's a very "objective" reading of history, and one that is rather at odds with the facts. In fact, the USSR was far more threatened by us than we were by them? Who first threatened the other side with nuclear attack (us)? Who first deployed nuclear weapons on the other's border (us)? Which country gave nuclear assistance to its allies (us to Britain--before you mention China, the reason for the Sino-Soviet split is that the USSR refused to give China nuke tech)?

[Wezil]

I'm curious to hear why Poland and Finland don't count.

: popcorn :

[Patroklos]

That's a very "objective" reading of history, and one that is rather at odds with the facts. In fact, the USSR was far more threatened by us than we were by them? Who first threatened the other side with nuclear attack (us)? Who first deployed nuclear weapons on the other's border (us)? Which country gave nuclear assistance to its allies (us to Britain--before you mention China, the reason for the Sino-Soviet split is that the USSR refused to give China nuke tech)?

Do you imagine any of those irrelevancies mask the fact that Soviet Union invaded the West more times than the West invaded it?

[chequita guevara]

I can understand how you might forget about Finland, you probably forgot about it while calculating your statistics in the millions.

Soviet Union invades Poland (1939) and Finland.

Germany invades the Soviet Union.

The Polish-Soviet war is a wash, no formal frontier was established at Versailles.

This part warrants repeating. We all know the Poles were asking for it in 1939, right?

The West invaded the USSR in 1918 and 1919 (not including the German invasion as part of WWI)

Poland invaded in 1919, and despite your assertion, a border had been delineated, the Curzon line. But Poland isn't the West.

WWII

You are correct about Finland, which I had forgotten (mainly because it isn't really the West). Poland still wasn't part of the West, and the Soviets only took back the territory they'd lost.

It's still two to zero for the West invading the USSR.

[Wezil]

"not the West"

Got it.

Filed with "They weren't really commies".

[Elok]

You're missing the point, which is that the USSR never actually needed the titanic bloated bureaucracy it actually had; the true Communist state achieves strict control of the economy without ever actually having a centralized government.

[Velociryx]

...time to break out the pixie dust again.

-=Vel=-

[Patroklos]

What was that someone had just said about Che and intellectual honesty? Gotcha.

[Az]

Everyone who thinks that capitalism is the "natural urge" of humankind is dumb as hell.

[chequita guevara]

"not the West"

Got it.

Filed with "They weren't really commies".

When was Poland ever considered part of Western Europe? Was Finland considered part of Western Europe in 1939? It was a backwater and not part of the area typically considered the West, which was generally meant to include only the colonial European powers.

If you're going to take modern definitions, and drag them back in history, one may as well claim that the USSR invaded France when the Russians occupied Paris after the defeat of Napoleon.

[snoopy369]

Everyone who thinks that capitalism is the "natural urge" of humankind is dumb as hell.

Selfishness is the natural urge of humankind [in economic terms]. Capitalism is the closest to selfishism that we've worked out that doesn't totally fall apart into anarchy... Some people certainly overcome that natural urge, but selfishness (for yourself or your family unit) is most certainly there at first, and there overall for an awful lot of people...

[Wezil]

If you're going to take modern definitions, and drag them back in history, one may as well claim that the USSR invaded France when the Russians occupied Paris after the defeat of Napoleon.

Yet you have no problem using a very expansive definition of "capitalism".

[Patroklos]

The West invaded the USSR in 1918 and 1919 (not including the German invasion as part of WWI)

Some western nations provided requested minimal assistance to a faction of the Russian Civil War, that is not the same thing as invading the Soviet Union (which did not exist) by any stretch of the imagination.

Poland invaded in 1919, and despite your assertion, a border had been delineated, the Curzon line. But Poland isn't the West.

I am going to include a link to the Curzon Line so that everyone can see just how disengenuous your (and commies in general) are when it comes to history and your calydascope of interpretation.

For one no side, Soviet or Polish, had accepted the PROPOSAL when hostilities started. Second, the Russian Civil War wasn't even over yet. I could go on, but whats the poont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line

When was Poland ever considered part of Western Europe?

You didn't say Western Europe, you said "The West," which in regards to the Soviet Union means everything west of them that they don't control.

You are correct about Finland, which I had forgotten (mainly because it isn't really the West). Poland still wasn't part of the West, and the Soviets only took back the territory they'd lost.

Soviet Union invades Finland and Poland.

Germany invades the Soviet Union.

Until you come up with something even vaguely interesting (I would say factual, but who are we kidding here, its che) to disprove the above it stands.

[onodera]

Poland and Finland were former Russian provinces, anyway.