Europe is Revolting

[Kidlicious]

So we're back to, "those guys weren't REAL commies," again. *big sigh*

Kid...enjoy chasing the white rabbit. You and I have had this discussion I don't know how many times.

We're not going to change each other's minds on the matter...that much is painfully obvious.

Enjoy the hunt.

-=Vel=-

I said they didn't create a democratic system. There were definitely forces within the movement that tried to but they were overcome. The same thing can happen in any system including that in the US. In fact, some would say that it has happened.

Given another chance in the future things can might turn out different. You seem to be blinding yourself to that possibility.

[Velociryx]

Given another chance in the future things can might turn out different. You seem to be blinding yourself to that possibility.

No...what I'm acknowledging is that it's foolish in the extreme to keep trying the same tired song and dance and then show genuine surprise when you don't get a different result.

Again...figure out how to get around human nature, and you will see a revolution with the results you desire. Till then...white rabbit.

And again...good luck.

-=Vel=-

[Patroklos]

Alright Kid, I will give you another couple hundred million people to burn for one last try, but this time you have to live with what you get. Deal?

[Kidlicious]

Given another chance in the future things can might turn out different. You seem to be blinding yourself to that possibility.

No...what I'm acknowledging is that it's foolish in the extreme to keep trying the same tired song and dance and then show genuine surprise when you don't get a different result.

Again...figure out how to get around human nature, and you will see a revolution with the results you desire. Till then...white rabbit.

And again...good luck.

-=Vel=-

What are you talking about human nature now for? What does that have to do with the internal struggles within a movement?

[Kidlicious]

Alright Kid, I will give you another couple hundred million people to burn for one last try, but this time you have to live with what you get. Deal?

I live with what I get, but let the people live.

[chequita guevara]

Alright Kid, I will give you another couple hundred million people to burn for one last try, but this time you have to live with what you get. Deal?

You're burning them now.

[Velociryx]

What are you talking about human nature now for? What does that have to do with the internal struggles within a movement?

That you even have to ask the question shows how pointless further discussion is.

-=Vel=-

[Patroklos]

You're burning them now.

You lost this line of thought a couple pages back. Please review

I live with what I get, but let the people live.

Advocating formenting revolution /= living with what you get.

[Kidlicious]

What are you talking about human nature now for? What does that have to do with the internal struggles within a movement?

That you even have to ask the question shows how pointless further discussion is.

-=Vel=-

No. You're yella.

[Velociryx]

Okay Kid. Sure. Whatever you say.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Okay Kid. Sure. Whatever you say.

-=Vel=-

Seriously though. You're saying that every revolution ends in with a totalitarian system because of human nature. Back that up please.

[Patroklos]

He is specifically talking about communist revolutions. In which case he is absolutely right, unless you can point out the communist state not run by a strong man.

[Kidlicious]

He is specifically talking about communist revolutions. In which case he is absolutely right, unless you can point out the communist state not run by a strong man.

No. Unless you can come up with a reason, then you have nothing.

[Jon Miller]

What most communists don't realize is that most people will be happy if they have:

1. Food
2. Shelter/Clothing/etc
3. enough drugs/material possessions to distract themselves

As long as this is the case, the only time that there will be a revolution is if the leaders/etc mismanage enough so that a significant portion of the populace are missing 1, 2, or 3.

It is very easy for the populace to be exploited, and still have 1, 2, and 3...

JM

[Velociryx]

Nope...I said that the endpoint of communism, because of faults in its design, gives you totalitarianism every time. Not "every revolution." Every communist revolution.

As I've pointed out before (again, and again and again and...), communism isn't scalar. It's barely functional in small groups where there's perfect accountability, but it really shows its weaknesses as you attempt to scale up. You ramp up, lock horns with that pesky element called human nature, and she flies off the tracks and into the arms of a totalitarian state.

We could try it once more, or a thousand more times. Won't matter, because until you change something about the nature of the system or human nature itself, you're gonna get the same result.

(One of) the reasons capitalism works as well as it does is that it panders to human nature. Granted, it's still a work in progress, and it'll never truly be finished as viewpoints change over time (too much regulation, not enough...that kind of thing will constantly evolve, and I doubt we'll ever hit on a perfect mix)...but for your vision of the utopia to succeed, you've gotta take it into account, and do a better job at channeling it than the current system does.

Or...resort to mass murders/forced imprisonment again, but then...we're back to totalitarianism.

-=Vel=-