Europe is Revolting

[Velociryx]

Kid, I know that there are nearly as many "flavors" of communism as there are communists, so I must ask this question to see where you stand on one of the central issues of the utopia.

Private property rights?

Should people be allowed to own their own land, or (since land is very definitely a means of production), should that be the purview of the benevolent governing body?

If you opt NOT to allow for private ownership, then, in the absence of a strong central government, who will enforce this rule?

If you DO allow for private ownership, then should there be limits placed on how much property CAN be owned?

How should people be handled who are wary of giving up their right to own property? (even if they don't own much, or any...you'll find millions of folks who won't be thrilled with the prospect of giving up their right to do so in the future).

Reeducation camps? Shoot to kill? Eugenics? Kumbayah? Or something else?

Again, I'm asking this in seriousness. These are the kinds of decisions the movers and shakers of the revolution will need to have answers for, so what'll it be? I'm sure you picture yourself as being one of "the deciders," so step up and map out your vision of the utopia. What shape will it take, and how will you be able to avoid creating a highly centralized, totalitarian state to keep control of your own people (to say nothing of--real or imagined--external threats?

What would you do differently than the revolutionaries that have come before you?

It seems that if anybody needs to do any proving that "this time, it'll be different," It is you.

Or are you yella?

-=Vel=-

It is these kinds of natty little details that will make or break the system.

[Elok]

The stronger the enemies the stronger the voice will be for those who call for strong government.

...that does not in any way address or refute what BC said. If anything, it reinforces it. But even supposing the revolution is achieved perfectly and all real opposition is gone, how do you imagine a Communist Utopia would work, in the nuts and bolts? Who makes the decisions, and how? I guarantee I can find at least one loophole for corruption, no matter how you arrange it. Probably more like five, because in order to prevent the accumulation of power in the hands of resourceful individuals you need even greater power in the hands of regulatory authorities, and if you're going to prevent the regulators from abusing their power you'll need regulators for the regulators, and regulators for regulators of regulators...and so on.

Capitalism "works" (at least, better than communism ever has) because it turns the selfish portions of human nature against each other. It's like the U.S. government system of checks and balances, for the economy. It's not perfect, and it needs its watchdogs, but it works better than Marxist naivete.

[The Mad Monk]

The cake was big enough 400 years ago.

JM

The population was smaller and died quicker 400 years ago.

[Arrian]

The cake was big enough in 1609?

Have you studied history? AT ALL?

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

All this talk of cake is making Vel hungry.

Must find food.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

The Cake is a Lie anyway, right?

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

So they knew the cake wasn't big enough, but went for the less effective system anyway?

I don't think you are considering the fact that they were at war with the entire world. I wouldn't say the communist system was less effective.

[The Mad Monk]

They weren't at war until they pulled the trigger. Why did they pull the trigger?

You just said the capitalist system is better at creating wealth.

[Kidlicious]

Private property rights?

You're always going on about this. Here's the thing, in the capitalist system, everyone has property rights. That includes, me you, and all the rich people that neither one of us know. Now, sure I like to own my own house. In fact, I wouldn't might dabbling in the stock market. But that also means that the capitalist can do the same thing. So in order for me to have the simple pleasure of owning things I have to subject myself to exploition and all the negatives that go with it. Add up all the pros and cons and you'll see the right to property sucks.

[Velociryx]

The Cake is a Lie anyway, right?

-Arrian

Indeed!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

You're always going on about this. Here's the thing, in the capitalist system, everyone has property rights. That includes, me you, and all the rich people that neither one of us know. Now, sure I like to own my own house. In fact, I wouldn't might dabbling in the stock market. But that also means that the capitalist can do the same thing. So in order for me to have the simple pleasure of owning things I have to subject myself to exploition and all the negatives that go with it. Add up all the pros and cons and you'll see the right to property sucks.

Okay, so I take it that's a "no" to the question surrounding private property (and I'll stop there and not ask you to defend the position of why state control is superior...we can leave that for later).

Care to take a stab at the rest, or do those not exist, yella?

-=Vel=-

And btw, I am of the opinion that private property rights are among the most radical and empowering rights that any individual can have, so count me among the number of folks who will be unwilling to give that right up for the glories of the utopia...so again, to those other questions...how will you deal with this not insignificant segment of the populace?

[Jon Miller]

There are societies where the private ownership of land isn't a standard idea.

Just saying that it isn't the default. It might be the best idea though.

JM

[Kidlicious]

They weren't at war until they pulled the trigger. Why did they pull the trigger?

You're ignoring the fact that the rest of the world was ruled by capitalists, and they were their natural enemies. Also, this is ****ing Russia we're talking about here. They were bound to be invaded, and in fact they were.

You just said the capitalist system is better at creating wealth.

What is "better?" You can't even prepare for war without central planning.

[The Mad Monk]

Any of those societies have anywhere near our size?

[The Mad Monk]

You're ignoring the fact that the rest of the world was ruled by capitalists, and they were their natural enemies. Also, this is ****ing Russia we're talking about here. They were bound to be invaded, and in fact they were.


What is "better?" You can't even prepare for war without central planning.

You're ignoring the fact they wouldn't have been recognized as communists had they not declared themselves as such from the outset.