Europe is Revolting

[chequita guevara]

About the crisis itself, i will point out once more: It is not the result of the misbehaviour of a certain group of people. In 29 in wasnt the jews, and in 08 it was not the bankers - it´s part of the system, and intrisic to it.

This guy from the IMF sez otherwize though I agree, it is intrinsic to the system.

Che, why is this a good thing?
Do you wish for a class struggle type of revolt with people being killed?

Uh, communist, duh. I would point out that the current capitalist system results in 24,000 people dying a day from malnutrition and access to bad drinking water. While I certainly don't wish for people to be killed (joking aside about individual people), if people have to be killed in order to create a world where the wealthy nations will transfer enough wealth to the poor nations to saves those lives, it will be worth it. In a decade, that would be almost 88 million people whose lives could be saved.

[Seeker]

+, -, *, /, lots of math lots of numbers to calculate the acceptable losses, 100 000 here, 10 million there...

Once you start talking about how many thousands are acceptable losses to create the workers paradise you just lose me.

Had some interesting conversations last month in Cambodia with some guys who put the idea into practice, and still go around talking about 'regrettable but necessary' etc.

I'd rather be a bum picking out the juiciest maggots from some fat bankers left-over Big Mac on Wall Street than have to live in the kind of society where True Communism is always 'just around the corner'...if only we can get those foreigner 'wreckers', spies, sentimental bourgeois, kids who wear glasses, etc. who are the last barrier holding us back.

Trying to create the perfect world is, of necessity and by nature, a totalitarian project that leads to informants, fear, torture, crushing of dissent, and ultimately mass graves.

[chequita guevara]

So you'd rather one hundred million die then you personally have to shoot someone? You have a very ****ed up sense of morality.

The perfect world cannot be created. That doesn't mean we cannot try to create a better one. If our species followed your logic, we'd still be living on the African savanna, scavenging for roots, berries, nuts, and what ever could run away fast enough or was being picked over by weaker animals. Thankfully, we always try and improve our condition.

Lastly, Cambodia was a peasant revolution, which, if you know *ANYTHING* about communism, you should know it is not what communism is about. What happened in Cambodia is the same crap we see around the world and history whenever peasants get fed up with their lot, rise up, and win. Just like rural Americans, they are deeply suspicious, mistrustful, and even hateful towards the cities they see as dens of vice, crime, and who exploit them.

[Elok]

So it's totally different when industrial laborers get fed up, rise up, and win? Er, I mean if, not when, since that's never happened, but is there something special about being an ignorant, POed press operator as opposed to an ignorant POed yak herder that makes your revolutions result in a more harmonious society?

[David Floyd]

While I certainly don't wish for people to be killed (joking aside about individual people), if people have to be killed in order to create a world where the wealthy nations will transfer enough wealth to the poor nations to saves those lives, it will be worth it. In a decade, that would be almost 88 million people whose lives could be saved.

Not worth it if my quality of life goes down. I like my life, thank you very much.

[chequita guevara]

I would never bother to try and convince you, DF.

So it's totally different when industrial laborers get fed up, rise up, and win? Er, I mean if, not when, since that's never happened, but is there something special about being an ignorant, POed press operator as opposed to an ignorant POed yak herder that makes your revolutions result in a more harmonious society?

Historically, when the peasants revolted, they burn down the manor homes and towns. It ain't pretty. Historically, when the workers revolted, they didn't turn around and start exterminating people. In fact, too often they let their class enemies escape, who then turn around, organization a counter revolution, and slaughter the workers. There are counter examples here and there, but we're talking about general trends.

The question you ask, then, is why? Well, nut bar individuals aside, peasants tend to live a very isolated experience, usually only knowing their own tiny village, and maybe a new people from neighboring villages. Their experience with outsiders is generally oppressive. Rural life is a lot more conservative.

Conversely, urban life is tends to be very social. You work with many people in close proximity, you live in close proximity, you travel with many people, you often eat with many people, you experience a multitude of types of people and cultures. Urban life tends to be a lot more cosmopolitan.

Again, we're talking about general trends, and there are counter trends, such as racism, sexism, the ideology of the ruling class, etc. Given, however, the stereotypes about the rural.urban divide in America, don't pretend like this is some whacked out, alien idea you've never encountered. I'm sure you've never made a joke about hillbillies marrying their sisters. The whole red state/blue state divide is precisely such an example of this division.

[David Floyd]

But you'd be OK redistributing my personal "wealth", anyway, right?

What gives you the moral authority?

[chequita guevara]

But you'd be OK redistributing my personal "wealth", anyway, right?

What gives you the moral authority?

The same moral authority that agreed it was acceptable to redistribute the wealth of slave owners and free their slaves.

In any event, we've had this discussion for almost a decade, DF, so why continue it? Just say you disagree and move on.

[David Floyd]

In any event, we've had this discussion for almost a decade

Wow, that's a good point. A decade? Jesus. It's good to see we've all gotten older, if not necessarily wiser

[David Floyd]

The same moral authority that agreed it was acceptable to redistribute the wealth of slave owners and free their slaves.

More importantly, that comparison is completely false. Just because people are starving in the Third World doesn't make them my slave.

[rtwinger]

The same moral authority that agreed it was acceptable to redistribute the wealth of slave owners and free their slaves.

In any event, we've had this discussion for almost a decade, DF, so why continue it? Just say you disagree and move on.

Okay Che,
I like your example. Redistribute wealth from slave owners to slave. Nice parallel, like the CEOs or bankers are exploiting their workers.

But okay, let's see if your example works with me. I make a high five figure salary from essentially running online businesses/blogs, which actually may turn into six figures if this year goes well, while also being a student. You would probably advocate redistributing wealth from me because I'm not working class or poor. I am actually a student. My parents didn't pay for me and I made my wealth through my own labor: being a computer nerd and knowing how to drive traffic through websites.

How am I a slave owner? Why should I be shot or why should you take my wealth from me? It could be argued that I am actually the "slave," since I rely on so many people, and no one really relies on me.

You might argue that since I'm a rightwinger it's morally justifiable to liquidate me, but don't make that argument just yet. Assume, for argument sake that I am a leftwing blogger complaining about George W. Bush that makes that kind of money instead, since the comparison is valid and actually more common in that case.

[Elok]

So, generally speaking, rural people are bad people? That's the distinction? Yes, I make jokes about hillbilly inbreeding, but half the humor of the joke is that it's a recognized stereotype, a tired old trope that's funnier precisely because it's self-perpetuating. It's like a blonde joke. I mostly trot it out to irritate my southern-born fiancee, along with the jokes about her supposed proud heritage of lynching and pig-molesting. Are you telling me your whole ideology relies on the presumed truth of a crude stereotype?

[Felch]

The same moral authority that agreed it was acceptable to redistribute the wealth of slave owners and free their slaves.

As long as Communists equate voluntary agreements to work for wages with involuntary servitude, they will continue to sound like nitwits.

When the revolution comes, I'll enjoy blowing you Red retards away.

[rtwinger]

As long as Communists equate voluntary agreements to work for wages with involuntary servitude, they will continue to sound like nitwits.

When the revolution comes, I'll enjoy blowing you Red retards away.

I can not kill a man. Rather, would not be able to.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dude, there's one really simple answer to all your questions. Che is a moronic tool with no intellectual integrity.

I wouldn't say he doesn't have intellectual integrity. He's fairly constant about the fact that he believes the oppressed should be able to use violence against the oppressor.