Senator Ted Kennedy collapses

[Ben Kenobi]

Most women do believe men are inferior. Oh, I forgot, you don't know anything about women.

If they are 50 or over, sure.

Call your local politican and ask him/her if he/she belongs to any clubs that exclude minorities or women. I'll bet I know what his/her answer will be.

Ok, I called my mayor. He's a Knight.

You lose.

[rah]

If they are 50 or over, sure.

Ok, I called my mayor. He's a Knight.
You lose.

Based on all you collective wisdom observed in all your posting about women, age makes no difference, you know nothing about them regardless.

I'm sure your mayor runs quite the enlightened administration.
psst, I was talking about real politicians.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm sure your mayor runs quite the enlightened administration.
psst, I was talking about real politicians.

You said local politician.

You can't get any more local then that.

As for his administration, why do you think I worked for his campaign?

Based on all you collective wisdom observed in all your posting about women, age makes no difference, you know nothing about them regardless.

It would be funnier if you posted that as Ali C.

[rah]

It would be funnier if you posted that as Ali C.

I wasn't trying to be funny.

[Ben Kenobi]

Wow you should think of changing careers then.

I found it plenty funny on this end.

[rah]

So sad.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why?

Are you Fabio or something and I should be reading your book on how to attract women?

[Kuciwalker]

Kuci's comment makes women a lower class of being. What, they can't talk about sports or penis sizes. I know a few women that get along better in male gatherings then quite a few men. To generalize and say that women should be excluded based just on their sex is sexism. Look up the definition.

[-Jrabbit]

So, how 'bout that Ted Kennedy thing, huh?

[Kuciwalker]

Kuci, the difference is not 'inherent'. The only difference I see is the level - one is a small organization with relatively small effect on anything, one is a large organization with a more substantial impact. It would be trivial for Princeton to have defined itself a "Men's University" and thus met your criteria wholeheartedly.

Uh, no. Princeton is an educational institution. A fraternity or sorority is a social institution - it's basically just a group of very close friends. If your relationships with whites and blacks are different you're probably a racist, but if your relationships with men and women are different you are probably not, for VERY OBVIOUS REASONS.

In fact, your argument is precisely the argument typically used to defend racist/sexist organizations. The Klu Klux Klan is a 'White' organization, so they would bar blacks from joining (whether they do today or not I don't know, but they certainly did); restaurants might bar blacks or gays from eating there because they are a 'white restaurant'. There's no reason white people might not want to eat with other white people, is there, any differently from men versus women ...

You think that the difference between men and women is the same as the difference between whites and blacks? Seriously? Do I have to explain why it makes sense that friendships between guys and friendships between guys and girls would often have different characteristics?

[Kuciwalker]

I love the strawmen here. Apparently now I am a huge proponent of sexual segregation; I'm apparently claiming that "women should be excluded based just on their sex". I haven't once advocated any of that in this thread. The only thing I've done is say that Greek organizations and the like are very different animals from universities, and that there's no hypocrisy in opposing sex segregation in one without opposing it in the other.

[rah]

Why?

Are you Fabio or something and I should be reading your book on how to attract women?

Naw, I was probably closer to average. Dated quite a few women, had half a dozen longer term relationships then settled down and have been married for 22 years. Sounds normal. How about you?


And yes JR, how about that scum of the earth thing.

[Kuciwalker]

The difference between whites and blacks is wholly superficial. The difference between men and women is not.

[rah]

I love the strawmen here. Apparently now I am a huge proponent of sexual segregation; I'm apparently claiming that "women should be excluded based just on their sex". I haven't once advocated any of that in this thread. The only thing I've done is say that Greek organizations and the like are very different animals from universities, and that there's no hypocrisy in opposing sex segregation in one without opposing it in the other.

Not from me. I agreed with you on Greek organization, and on sports clubs. Its the other animals that we were argueing. You compared the OWL club to a fraternity, and I dissagreed with that classification. And believe that it does descriminate against women. That later is a fact, the former is probably open for arguements. It's obvious you aren't going to change your mind there so I think we can agree to dissagree, but be careful, the arguement you used sounds real close to what was used to exclude blacks.

[snoopy369]

Uh, no. Princeton is an educational institution. A fraternity or sorority is a social institution - it's basically just a group of very close friends. If your relationships with whites and blacks are different you're probably a racist, but if your relationships with men and women are different you are probably not, for VERY OBVIOUS REASONS.

Except that social organizations of the level of the Owl Club are in some ways just as important as educational institutions. As I noted, clubs like that are often where people form connections that lead to jobs, positions of responsibility, family ties, etc.; and by closing women [or racial minorities or ...] out of them, they perpetuate the old boy's club - literally - and give women an inferior chance to succeed.

You think that the difference between men and women is the same as the difference between whites and blacks? Seriously? Do I have to explain why it makes sense that friendships between guys and friendships between guys and girls would often have different characteristics?

... and that is called sexual discrimination. Assuming that women cannot have the same understanding as men innately is simply wrong - while perhaps most women might not share much in common with most men in that way (rah being a shining example of that ), it would be incorrect to assume that it is impossible.

In any event, it's one thing to have a loose, informal social group that is entirely men. It's entirely another thing to form an organization that explicitly forbids women into its ranks. The social harm to the latter is quite significant, and quite real; and if you think that this sort of conversation is any different from how the conversation over segregation occured fifty years ago, you are wholly wrong.