Senator Ted Kennedy collapses

[rah]

No, because there's no good reason a white guy wouldn't want to socialize with any black guys. There are plenty of good reasons a guy would want to go hang out with just some other guys.

Do you even read what you write? This is the most sexist comment you could possibly make. There is no argueing with bigots like you so I won't.

[Ben Kenobi]

rah believes that men and women are interchangeable, that there are no real differences between them.

Good luck Kuci.

[Ben Kenobi]

Do you even read what you write? This is the most sexist comment you could possibly make. There is no argueing with bigots like you so I won't.

The boy scouts are bigoted because their name excludes girls?

I wouldn't have put you to the left of Obama. No wonder you dislike him.

[rah]

You should learn to read ben. My previous post referenced the physical differences and why I consider that an exception.

My comment is about the generalizations that go along with racism and sexism.
Kuci's comment makes women a lower class of being. What, they can't talk about sports or penis sizes. I know a few women that get along better in male gatherings then quite a few men. To generalize and say that women should be excluded based just on their sex is sexism. Look up the definition.

And i see no reason for the boy and girl scouts to be seperate.

And everybody is left of you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Kuci's comment makes women a lower class of being.

How so? Would you say there was something wrong about a woman having a night out with the girls?

Do you accompany your wife everywhere? I highly doubt that.

I'd argue that the differences are in their favour and not ours, but then that's just because women are amazing.

What, they can't talk about sports or penis sizes. I know a few women that get along better in male gatherings then quite a few men.

There are plenty of times I enjoyed spending time with my brothers, and my dad watching football. Would I have preferred my mom or my grandmother watching over us? I mean really. They enjoyed going out and doing their own thing.

To generalize and say that women should be excluded based just on their sex is sexism.

There's this thing called freedom of association. I don't see anything wrong with women wanting to spend time with only women, and the same thing for the guys. It has nothing to do with one being better then the other.

And i see no reason for the boy and girl scouts to be seperate.

It's not just physical differences rah. Women think and see the world differently. It's a good thing too!

And everybody is left of you.

And you consider that a bad thing?

[RGBVideo]

this thread has been benkenobied

[SlowwHand]

benkenobied?

[rah]

Yes, and I'll leave the discussion after mentioning once again that BEN needs to learn how to read.

I never said that people shouldn't be able to choose who they associate with. But for ben's arguement
this would be important. LEARN TO READ.

I said that if clubs or organizations are formed that exclude based on sex or race, that I consider it's members sexists or racists and that most modern day politicians avoid such clubs because it'd not good for them to be considered sexists or racists. And the arguement that sometimes guys should be allowed to hang out together sounds real similar to the line used to exclude blacks and other minorities. It wasn't right for that and it's not right now.

But even after having said that, Watching football with the guys while the women slave away in the kitchen is also pretty sexist. In our house it can go either way. My wife likes football and I like to cook.

[Ben Kenobi]

But even after having said that, Watching football with the guys while the women slave away in the kitchen is also pretty sexist. In our house it can go either way. My wife likes football and I like to cook.

Where did I say anything about my mom or grandma slaving away in the kitchen while we watch football? Instead, this is what I said,

They enjoyed going out and doing their own thing.

Which implies they either watched their own shows or went out to do something that they liked.

That being said, I don't see what's sexist about the wife cooking while you watch football, unless you have a woman who doesn't enjoy cooking. There are some rah, that do enjoy cooking. Is it sexist that they enjoy cooking when they have the time and aren't rushed?

I said that if clubs or organizations are formed that exclude based on sex or race,

There are plenty of clubs and organisations that divide based on sex. Sporting clubs for one. Do you really want boys and girls playing on the same team? What about sororities and fraternities?

Same with Scouting. I think that it is important that boys get a chance to learn how to be men without having to worry about girls. The same with the girls having their own clubs and learning how to be women. Just because people prefer to have time with guys and just guys is hardly sexist. So long as this desire is there, there will be clubs formed.

The arguement that sometimes guys should be allowed to hang out together sounds real similar to the line used to exclude blacks and other minorities. It wasn't right for that and it's not right now.

Wow, ok. I feel sorry for you rah, I really do. I consider it a natural impulse. I'm really surprised that you can't understand anything about comraderie.

[snoopy369]

Uh, no? There's a huge difference between a major university denying admission to women, and a men's club denying admission to women. Sex is inherently relevant to one but not the other.

Kuci, the difference is not 'inherent'. The only difference I see is the level - one is a small organization with relatively small effect on anything, one is a large organization with a more substantial impact. It would be trivial for Princeton to have defined itself a "Men's University" and thus met your criteria wholeheartedly.

In fact, your argument is precisely the argument typically used to defend racist/sexist organizations. The Klu Klux Klan is a 'White' organization, so they would bar blacks from joining (whether they do today or not I don't know, but they certainly did); restaurants might bar blacks or gays from eating there because they are a 'white restaurant'. There's no reason white people might not want to eat with other white people, is there, any differently from men versus women ...

I think an organization that is centered around "men's interests" (say, a sports club) is perfectly fine. That organization, however, should still permit women who are interested in the same types of things to join in. Clubs like the "Owl Club" are a very effective way to perpetuate the "old boy's network" that keeps women (and blacks and gays and ...) from having as good of a shot at good jobs, and at being equal members of society. That is why it is objectionable; frankly, if it were a couple of guys in the alley drinking beers together, nobody would care; but we're not talking about King of the Hill here, now are we.

[rah]

BEN

The women in the kitchen, I'll give you that one since I assumed they were cooking instead of doing their own thing. I'll read more carefully.

But you really need to read more carefully also. I already covered sporting clubs and sororities earlier, if you had bother to read it so I'm not going to respond to that.

Boy scouts and girl scouts, I'll agree to dissagree. If you read the activities that both organizations do, you will be hard pressed to find anything that is exclusive to one gender so keeping them seperate seems kind of silly when there is always a shortage of people wanting to participate at the leadership level.

And read again. I have no problems with freedom of association and understand comraderie (probably more than you since I actually have RL friends) My issue is when you have an official organization or "CLUB" that excludes based on race or sex in the rules. (that's descrimination or sexism) Is that clear enough for you?

IF not, yes, you have the right to join one of those clubs, but if you do and somebody calls you a sexist because of it, They're correct.

[Ben Kenobi]

The women in the kitchen, I'll give you that one since I assumed they were cooking instead of doing their own thing. I'll read more carefully.

Thanks. It's interesting to see old fogey expectations come to play. Yes, we know you folks fought the revolution, but times have changed.

But you really need to read more carefully also. I already covered sporting clubs and sororities earlier, if you had bother to read it so I'm not going to respond to that.

Ok, my apologies. No need to rehash old arguments.

Boy scouts and girl scouts, I'll agree to dissagree. If you read the activities that both organizations do, you will be hard pressed to find anything that is exclusive to one gender so keeping them seperate seems kind of silly when there is always a shortage of people wanting to participate at the leadership level.

I was in Scouting for 10 years. There is and was a leadership shortage, especially in Cubs. I found that most cub packs had lady Akela's which doesn't help for attracting folks into scouting. I don't think you can blame the younger generation for not stepping up. The fault is in your generation for not taking the time to serve and help the boys out. It's the fault of the overall organisation that has lost sight of it's mission.

My scout group disbanded over the issue, the leaders got tired of dealing with the bs that came from the scouts in general and the lack of support we had over the years. It became easier to just get together informally and not deal with the other hassles. The problem being that all the groups folded.

The second problem is with guides and brownies, on the other side. Their organisation is completely lost in space. There is a demand for what they used to be, but now that they just 'copy the boys', why bother? It's an issue on their part. They have lots and lots of leadership, but very little in the way of quality and direction.

The result now is that there isn't any scouting altogether. Everybody loses.

And read again. I have no problems with freedom of association and understand comraderie (probably more than you since I actually have RL friends)

Can't resist the low blow, eh?

My issue is when you have an official organization or "CLUB" that excludes based on race or sex in the rules. (that's descrimination or sexism) Is that clear enough for you?

I won't argue the race part. Sex, I don't see how you can make 'exceptions' to the rules and still say there are issues. I think any club should be permitted to exclude men or women, if that is their choice. This works both ways.

IF not, yes, you have the right to join one of those clubs, but if you do and somebody calls you a sexist because of it, They're correct.

I don't see how women's clubs excluding men is making a statement that they believe men to be inferior. Until I see this, the whole argument is baseless.

[rah]

Ben
Most women do believe men are inferior. Oh, I forgot, you don't know anything about women.

Let's get back to the point.

Call your local politican and ask him/her if he/she belongs to any clubs that exclude minorities or women. I'll bet I know what his/her answer will be.

Ted Kennedy was the pot calling the kettle black.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Most women do believe men are inferior.

No we don't you brainless moronic scum lowlife!




To be fair, most women acknowledge the superiority of ferrets. But then again most men do too.

[rah]