The European Dream is the last hope for the ultimate victory of humanist ideals

[fed1943]

Each European country is as a matter of fact composed by several old,past
"Nations".
For instance,in Portugal, a very small country, you can count 6/7 people with
different "tastes", from mountain shepherds, farmers, to industrialists/craft to
sea people, every with different dances,cooking and so on.
But Europe is old, had plenty of time and since the moment Français and Deutsch are no longer enemies the door is open.

About USA: they are still a people of immigrants and immigrants like to keep the
things they bought from their old home, even after said old home has forgotten
or changed them.

Best regards,

[Traianvs]

Incorrect. Flanders is a nation. A nation is a group of closely linked people (that's the short-short definition), not a political entity (those are called 'states').

That is your interpretation of a nation. As the term is still not clearly defined, for me it has more to do with nationstates rather than closely linked people. Your view entails that any group can call itself a nation. Linguistic, religious, territorial, ideologic, dynastic, descent and many other variables could bring about 'nations'. That would make it very complex. There would literally be tens of thousands of nations.

In the case of Flanders, this 'nationalism' has only existed since the rise of nationalism two centuries ago. Before that era, the region I come from was not truly Flemish, despite the fact we shared the same language. We became 'Flemish' for political reasons later on. The only thing I have in common with people from West-Flanders (only 120km away) is that they speak Dutch (and in an awful dialect nobody can understand too). The reason we are both Flemish is political.

[Traianvs]

Why would the average Western European want to swap his social system for a country that is poor, ignorant and violent?

Because it's a good system if you have lots of money. You pay few taxes, and you can afford medical care anyway. Sadly, this only applies to the top tier of society, while the rest is worse off than here in western Europe.

Consequently, many of the brain drain is caused by greed. The rich and successful here thought to multiply their wealth across the Atlantic. And it works, the US is still the place to be if you want to earn big bucks.

[Agathon]

Because it's a good system if you have lots of money. You pay few taxes, and you can afford medical care anyway. Sadly, this only applies to the top tier of society, while the rest is worse off than here in western Europe.

Consequently, many of the brain drain is caused by greed. The rich and successful here thought to multiply their wealth across the Atlantic. And it works, the US is still the place to be if you want to earn big bucks.

Nah. If you want to earn real money, set yourself up in an emerging market.

[mrmitchell]

Regardless of what you think of the EU the dream that led to its creation is surely worthy of respect. I cannot help but hope that one day it will be reality. Human rights, peace, prosperity, united in diversity and solidarity. If humanity is capable of improving itself and learning from history it will first do so in Europe since it is the home of a family of cultures that has produced some of histories greatest geniuses and villains.

Despite all our faults I can not help but feel profoundly proud of being European. I hope to see in my own life time a United democratic Europe from Greenland to Moscow.

The EU is great stuff, but the gap you're building bridges over isn't as tremendous as you think it is. Nonetheless good work, there's always too many people looking out only for their own interests, that it's a surprise when much of any progress is made.

Every continent has produced some of history's greatest geniuses and villains. Europe doesn't have a greater share than any other (well the Old World might have some edge as a whole over the New). It's ridiculously Eurocentric to say that Europe has any special ability to produce notable people.

Humanity's already been improving itself a ton. But I feel like the model people should look up to is the UN instead of the EU. The UN bridges much wider cultural gaps and asks for much less central control. In terms of improvement of quality of life, it comes out miles ahead of the EU.

[Traianvs]

Difference is the EU can enforce rules while few nations truly adhere to important decisions made by the UN. Moreover that freak construction called the UNSC kills the entire idea of the UN. If that's not central control then I don't know what is. In the EU it is harder (though far from impossible) for larger and powerful nations to control decision-making.

Also, a comparison between the EU and UN is a bit awkward. They have different purposes, methods and institutions.

Nah. If you want to earn real money, set yourself up in an emerging market.

Could be, but I wouldn't want to rot away in some newfangled Chinese megacity with **** all to do.

[Monk]

No, this new European generation doesn't speak all that much English as we will have ourselves believe (edit: what a great sentence for a typo - I'm proving my own point here ). And even when people do, like here in Scandinavia or The Netherlands, they still read papers in their own languages catering to their own countries.

I'm not gonna say that I do know how different, but there are signs I can see. After all, how long ago was it that the English and French couldn't stand each other?

I'm not sure I get that one, monsieur Thobén?

The real point that deserves to be made is there has pretty much never been a nation as diverse and successful as the United States. We have pulled together many different people from all corners of the globe and co-existed remarkably well together. For all the scorn Europe has for us, we've lived the ideals your continent suddenly claims to care about better than you ever have...

Sure, Ozzy, but do keep in mind this unity was in no small part made possible firstly through newcomers exterminating the original population, secondly settling some remaining differences through a civil war.

As for France electing a Muslim president, that's going to take a while, to put it mildly - but that's true for every Western country. If you're thinking of Obama when you write this, which I suspect you are, good luck on defending the notion that black in the US corresponds to Muslim in Europe. You're going to need it

PS: I object to the 'for all the scorn' part too. You're making it sound like we're all mobiuses (or would that be 'mobii', perhaps?)

[Dr Strangelove]

Each European country is as a matter of fact About USA: they are still a people of immigrants and immigrants like to keep the
things they bought from their old home, even after said old home has forgotten
or changed them.

Best regards,

Pfft!!!! My family arrived in Virginia on the "Discovery". We've been here for over 400 years. We ain't immigrants.

[Monk]

Pfft!!!! My family arrived in Virginia on the "Discovery". We've been here for over 400 years. We ain't immigrants.

Not speaking for fed1943 here, but I don't think he's saying Americans are generally immigrants as much as that America is an immigrant country, born and based on immigration and more in a category with Australia than with, say, Norway. That is actually an important distinction.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That is your interpretation of a nation.

That's the political science accepted definition.

There is a reason they are called "Nation States", because they encompass both (at least some of them).

[Straybow]

Every country is composed of immigrants. The difference is that the Americans immigrated recently enough to remember why their ancestors left and settled a new land. Europeasants are the ones who didn't have the imagination or drive to leave. They've forgotten their ancient tribal quests for freedom, having camped in the same places for a couple thousand years, swapping out conquerors every few centuries. They think that's the good life, so much that some even welcome the bureaucratic conquerors from the low countries. A pity.

[Monk]

Every country is composed of immigrants. The difference is that the Americans immigrated recently enough to remember why their ancestors left and settled a new land. Europeasants are the ones who didn't have the imagination or drive to leave. They've forgotten their ancient tribal quests for freedom, having camped in the same places for a couple thousand years, swapping out conquerors every few centuries. They think that's the good life, so much that some even welcome the bureaucratic conquerors from the low countries. A pity.

That's worthy of a nomination to the newly founded 'reverse Mobius award' where a comittee of Eurotrash good-for-nothing latte drinkers will reward the poster who cared the least about backing up his opinions properly with a free trip to Paris. The catch being that whoever eventually wins will not accept any such award, having the good life already.

[fed1943]

Dr. Strangelove:
You know where,when and how your ancestors arrived to your country; you just proved my
point. You hardly find a handful of Europeans,Africans or Asians who remember it.
And nothing wrong to be "a people of immigrants"; conversely I think that's the deep reason
you have the best chances to be the seeds of a viable alternative to the next world war.
Best regards,

[Unimatrix11]

LOL

Actually I think that the real reason I love the European ideal is because I was a trekkie as a kid. I mean the United Federation of Planets is basically what the EU aspires to be just in space.

TNG = Euro Star Trek

It´s quite interesting in culture historical pov imho btw (! ). TNG is surely the most european version of star trek and looking at when it was made, it might not be all that surprising, since during the late 80´s and early 90´s, for a short time, europe was the centre of the world again, because pretty much everything of importance happened here. Though it started in the Readan era, at least in later seasons, the tone of ´the big house´ (bush snr.) is shining through and the federation´s policy was probably never more truely put into action in the US than by Clinton (who might have well been elected by the europeans as well). Well, nothing to be overrated really, but if i was a cultural historian, i´d surely investigate more closely, how the depections of politics in star trek represent the policies of the time and what the resemblances base on and such... blablabla...

[rah]

Hmmm Picard had an accent. That's about the only link I can see. The rest is imaginary.