The European Dream is the last hope for the ultimate victory of humanist ideals

[Traianvs]

We don't need any nationalist feelings for a united Europe to work. Nationalism is a bad idea anyways. A true eurofanatic doesn't care for a flag, hymn or other symbolic traits. In any case, a United States of Europe will not be possible for another century, so that's not the issue here.

[Monk]

We don't need any nationalist feelings for a united Europe to work. Nationalism is a bad idea anyways. A true eurofanatic doesn't care for a flag, hymn or other symbolic traits. In any case, a United States of Europe will not be possible for another century, so that's not the issue here.

Now I don't know how a 'true eurofanatic' looks like, but the term implies to me there's some kind of national identity going on there. Could you clarify in what way the true eurofanatic's approach to Europe would differ from, say, the typical Portuguese person's approach to Portugal?

[Agathon]

Human beings are inherently religious creatures. A society won't be atheist long. Given this, even a pragmatic atheist may wish to have a christian society rather than the alternatives available at the time.

You do nothing here to dissolve the stereotype of Americans as irrational, conservative Neanderthals. Where do you get this bull**** from? Rush Limbaugh?

[Traianvs]

I've raised the matter a few times already on apolyton. These people want a more democratic Union, with more power to the parliament, which in turn is democratically elected by the residents of the member states. More supranationalism and less 'statism' in the Council by removing unanimity voting. That sort of things.

Some people argued that there should be a European identity for that, but I don't believe that. 3/4th of laws and rules are European already. We've gotten this far without crazy nationalist tendencies already, proving we don't need that. We do need more democratic decision-making to get people involved and to give them the feeling they can make an impact. (Even though we all know that even in a democracy this impact is limited). This does not imply more nationalism, since nationalism antagonizes. With 27 member states with different languages, cultures etc ingrained for centuries the idea itself is preposterous.

[Agathon]

I've raised the matter a few times already on apolyton. These people want a more democratic Union, with more power to the parliament, which in turn is democratically elected by the residents of the member states. More supranationalism and less 'statism' in the Council by removing unanimity voting. That sort of things.

Some people argued that there should be a European identity for that, but I don't believe that. 3/4th of laws and rules are European already. We've gotten this far without crazy nationalist tendencies already, proving we don't need that. We do need more democratic decision-making to get people involved and to give them the feeling they can make an impact. (Even though we all know that even in a democracy this impact is limited). This does not imply more nationalism, since nationalism antagonizes. With 27 member states with different languages, cultures etc ingrained for centuries the idea itself is preposterous.

I think the general trend, except among the far right, is towards post-national cosmopolitanism. It's 2400 years too late, but Zeno and Chrysippus are finally getting their wish.

Americans don't understand this, because politics for them necessarily involves grovelling, saluting, pledging and other forms of crypto fascist behaviour.

[TCO]

Stupid software

[Traianvs]

Well speaking of which, the most recent generations of young people such as myself all speak English, which speeds up cosmopolitan behaviour considerably. Communication is essential for common understanding. Pretty much why the Arabic and far eastern world has trouble understanding western culture and its morals I guess.

I like to mock American laws and American habits, but I probably have more in common with an American now than I would have with a German say 100 years ago. The trend is inevitable. Don't try to fight the assimilation.

[Theben]

Dude, you can't compare the two. Even though the colonies were obviously different from each other, they were just that, colonies in the 'new world', not nation states. (Edit: I know you acknowledge the situations are different, I just think you still underestimate how different they are.)

As for the nationalist feelings, why would this European feeling in a united Europe be any less of a nationalist feeling than the current ones? Seems to me it's just about replacing one nationalist feeling with a new one. It's not like there won't still be some people on the inside and some people on the outside...

I'm not gonna say that I do know how different, but there are signs I can see. After all, how long ago was it that the English and French couldn't stand each other?

[notyoueither]

We don't need any nationalist feelings for a united Europe to work. Nationalism is a bad idea anyways. A true eurofanatic doesn't care for a flag, hymn or other symbolic traits. In any case, a United States of Europe will not be possible for another century, so that's not the issue here.

Irony much?

[OzzyKP]

I think if there's something to be learned from history, that something might just be the fact that you're not supposed to include different nationalities in the same political entity. That's a lesson the 20th century should have taught us on numerous occasions, both in Europe and elsewhere.

No disagreement on open trade. Free movement could be a good idea too, but already here we're seeing problems. A united foreign policy? Please.

I'm not arguing that you can't feel European, or that you shouldn't. What I could argue, however, is that most people don't share this idealism and never will, regardless of whether we end up sharing currencies etc.

I think there is a model of success, and while most pro-Union Europeans would hate to admit it, that model is the United States. And while there is a big difference between Massachusetts and Virginia, I'm not going to suggest that it is at all equivalent to the difference between France & Germany, but it shouldn't necessarily be discounted.

The real point that deserves to be made is there has pretty much never been a nation as diverse and successful as the United States. We have pulled together many different people from all corners of the globe and co-existed remarkably well together. For all the scorn Europe has for us, we've lived the ideals your continent suddenly claims to care about better than you ever have and, perhaps, better than you ever will.

For all the talk of pluralism there really does seem to be a great deal of racism left in Europe. I anticipate it only getting worse. Obviously we still have issues here, but how long before France elects a Muslim President? How long till Italy elects a Roma prime minister?

Holding to your ideals in prosperity is one thing, but I'm fearful how they'll stand up in this economic crisis (or one some day in the future).

Perhaps one day you'll have some appreciation for your redneck children across the ocean.

[Agathon]

I like to mock American laws and American habits, but I probably have more in common with an American now than I would have with a German say 100 years ago. The trend is inevitable. Don't try to fight the assimilation.

I don't think this is true. There's quite a strong cleavage between the US and the rest of the Anglosphere. Even Britain, which is a pretty conservative country, is nowhere near as bat**** conservative as the US. The US has more in common with religiously conservative nations like Poland and Turkey than it does with Western Europe.

[Darius871]

Agiaggie I LOVE you man, dont'w't yuout stop being YOU BH

[Imran Siddiqui]

There are Flemish nationalists here, but Flanders is not a nation. So yes.

Incorrect. Flanders is a nation. A nation is a group of closely linked people (that's the short-short definition), not a political entity (those are called 'states').

[Agathon]

I think there is a model of success, and while most pro-Union Europeans would hate to admit it, that model is the United States.

How so? Your country is racked with poverty, has no proper health care system, has a culture that originated in a sewer, and food that is not much better. You don't even have decent internet, transport or mobile telephony.

Why would the average Western European want to swap his social system for a country that is poor, ignorant and violent?

You Yanks live in a fantasy world, honestly...

[Naked Gents Rut]

Why would the average Western European want to swap his social system for a country that is poor, ignorant and violent?

Don't ask me. We sure do get a lot of Western European immigrants, though.