Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[TCO]

Euros are cowards, so it makes them feel bad to see brave and good men for a change. Just beat them down every chance you get. Especially the Frogs.

[TCO]

Siro, some interesting links:

http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275316.html

http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/680/Context-less-in-Gaza.aspx

http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/confronting_hamas_genocidal_je.html

[Donegeal]

We need flags working again so I can change mine to Israel.

[Ramo]

So if your house gets shot up by some random drive-by, but nobody dies, it's not such a big deal? Just vandalism, maybe an unlawful discharge of a firearm in city limits, or something like that?

It's obviously a smaller deal than if someone dies. Most legal codes recognize this. They also generally punish restricting one's access to food or medical attention. An embargo is generally recognized in international law as casus belli. And its consequences were obviously significantly greater.

Remember that if Arabs actually had jobs like everybody else in the world, the siege wouldn't work. They'd sell goods and services through the Egyptian boundary, and Israel would be the only loser for isolating itself from productive economic activity.

You realize that Egypt helped to enforce the siege, right?

Unfortunately for the Arabs, they're allergic to holding down a job. Ever bought a tool made in Syria, a toy made in Yemen, or a piece of software written by a Saudi? Of course not. They're too busy beating their wives and blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Classy

[Ramo]

Feiglin is in no way a prominent Likud figure.
He's an odd bird, that forces his way into Likkud despite his views being unpopular in the leadership and the Likkud electorate.

Feiglin knows he has no chance to get a serious spot in a fringe right wing group, so he abuses the lax party registration rules to register tons of his own supporters as "Likud" members thereby getting a spot in Likud and then hopefully winning votes via the general Likud electorate.

I'm not sure amount of votes he got in Likud would get him in the Knesset had he ran in his own party. This political trick is the only reason for his Likud ticket.

So is Gershom wrong in that he engineered the Likud slate?

I'm not sure how that relates to what I said.
Hamas police bases are used to plan and launch attacks against Israel.
Hamas operatives store munitions and rockets in their homes' basements.

As I said, you're destroying Hamas' ability to function as a state. Why are you so confident that this is a good thing? 'Cuz the alternative is probably not going to be Fatah. Salafis have been gaining support in Gaza...

The Israeli response takes into account Hamas's intentions and volume of rockets fired - not the technical savviness or lack of it, of Hamas engineers.
Are you suggesting we let more missiles drop and respond only when they learn to aim better?

I was obviously suggesting a end to the isolation policy. If rockets continue firing, then it'd be a different matter. And I'd hope that a response should primarily take into account a realistic measure of the threat.

Yadda Yadda radicalized.
That argument doesn't work.
Anyone who can be radicalized is radicalized already.

That's nonsense. Personal proximity is always going to have a large effect. And more than that, this is not good PR. Folks like Mustafa Barghouti are strongly against what Israel is doing.

Hamas have single handedly turn huge civilian areas into effective military storehouses or bases for operations.

According to the geneva convention, such activity completely annuls any special status a protected civilian area receives, and military action against military targets in this area is perfectly legal and moral.

Uh, right. Systems of morality aren't supposed to be this simple.

This is a joke.
The prisoner's document, and documents far less out-reaching that it were absolutely dismissed by Hamas leadership.

My understanding is that it was embraced at first, and then Hamas pulled support after Abbas pushed for a referendum. They didn't follow through, but there was the beginning of an agreement.

I don't think Gaza Isolation is doing good for anyone.
I'd be happy if we lift it as much as security allows, once attacks cease.

So you agree that negotiation with Hamas is the next step? And what do you think of the ground offensive?

What a joke.
Hamas does not have wings.
It has a structure in which there is a political leadership that oversees a military organization (Aziz Al-Kassam brigades, and now several police forces).
The military organization is subject to political leadership decisions and every order regarding military action is authorized by the political leadership.

I tell you this on very good ground.

By political wing, I mean the folks who are more amenable to a political solution. Meeshal, for example (who, granted, is part of the Damascus leadership), had been talking about a two state solution as a practical necessity.

[Dinner]

I hate to say it but DinoDoc is right. Deportation, like what happened to the Germans in the east & in Sudetenland after WW2, is the long term solution. The Arabs are never going to give up their dream of a new Saladin showing up and driving out the nonMuslims so they have to suffer so that they aren't so quick to start future wars. Worked with the Germans and it would work with the Palestinians.

[SlowwHand]

We need flags working again so I can change mine to Israel.

Make a temporary avatar change. I will if you will.

[Dinner]

More brutal but even more effective was the Mongol approach to dealing with Arab uprisings. They cut the heads off of everyone in Baghdad and then left a great pyramid of skulls outside the burning wreck of the city to show people what happens when they rise up against the Mongols.

http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/iraq/iraq_history_the_mongol_invasion.html

[SlowwHand]

They had the right idea.

[Sirotnikov]

So is Gershom wrong in that he engineered the Likud slate?

I don't know who is Gershom, but what does that have to do with the Likud slate?
Likud had democratic primary elections. Feiglin managed to amass his supporters and register them to Likud, and now he's won 24 or 28 place (don't remember).
Nethanyahu responded by changing the slate and using promoting different reserved positions to places 24-38 (iirc), which pushed back Feiglin's spot to 39 or something, which is not a realistic place. Even though it is not completely legal to change reserve seats after the elections, Nethanyahu had the support of all party members.

Feiglin has been trying to run for Likud for several years now, and he never managed to get a high enough place to enter the Knesset.

As I said, you're destroying Hamas' ability to function as a state. Why are you so confident that this is a good thing? 'Cuz the alternative is probably not going to be Fatah. Salafis have been gaining support in Gaza...

I'm destroying Hamas' ability to function as a terrorist organization. Do you really think that it is more important to keep Hamas in charge than to stop his ability to deliver deadly attacks on Israel?

The Israeli answer is no. The fact that the police stations are used for attacks against us outweighs the fact that those police stations serve their original function.

It's like If you attack me with a kitchen knife, and I take away your knife, and you'll say it's wrong, because now you have nothing to prepare dinner with... You should have thought of that before you attacked.

I was obviously suggesting a end to the isolation policy. If rockets continue firing, then it'd be a different matter. And I'd hope that a response should primarily take into account a realistic measure of the threat.

The isolation policy is primarily a reponse to Hamas aggression.
The first isolation steps were a direct result of the kidnapping of Corp. Gilad Shalit, and it has down spiraled since.

That's nonsense. Personal proximity is always going to have a large effect. And more than that, this is not good PR. Folks like Mustafa Barghouti are strongly against what Israel is doing.

Obviously many palestinians will be against what Israel is doing, because it will get their brothers killed. Obviously, a palestinian will love his Hamas serving brother more, than he will appreciate the justice in the Israeli response.

Meanwhile, Hamas should learn new rules of engagement with Israel, that Lebanon learnt. The hard way.

Btw, Israel really did go out of its way in the last weeks of December to reach some kind of understanding to continue the tahdyia. Hamas ignored. Egypt is supportive of Israel precisely for that reason - Egypt is the mediator and they have done all they could, and they honestly and sincerely blame Hamas for this round.

Uh, right. Systems of morality aren't supposed to be this simple.

There's nothing simple about it. It's meant to prevent any side from gaining an illegal advantage, by using civilian population as a shield. Which is precisely what Hamas is doing.

My understanding is that it was embraced at first, and then Hamas pulled support after Abbas pushed for a referendum. They didn't follow through, but there was the beginning of an agreement.

I don't remember the details as well, but at the time I was very accessible to info about that discussion.
Hamas' Gaza leadership did all it could to avoid creating a scandal, so it very pleasantly said "Yes, but..." to many of clauses, and then pushing a statement that completely negated whatever it is the clause had said.
Even then, the Syrian Hamas leadership was furious because they considered Gaza hamas to be too soft.

This conflict lead to the kidnapping of Shalit, which absolved Hamas from the public and international pressure of that agreement. It is suspected that the Shalit kidnapping has been pushed ahead by the Syrian leadership, especially Mash'al, who was keen on stopping the discussion.

So you agree that negotiation with Hamas is the next step? And what do you think of the ground offensive?

Hamas? no.
A third body, be it Egypt or some UN/EU monitoring force? Yes.

I'm undecided about the ground offensive. I wasn't sure it was the right thing to go into, because it's a big risk. I think that if we started one, we should make it decisive and follow it through as much as we can.

We have a tendency to start things without finishing them, and making fools of our-selves. I seriously dislike half-finished jobs, and I think it does us more harm than good. If we went it, we should take charge of all the strip, and Gaza-City. Or at least place a significant block of the city itself, with aerial forces hunting out Hamas activists, for a week or two.

As far as the population goes - I think we have two choises.
Either we conquer Gaza, clear it of Hamas forces we find, and then lift the blockade fully, attempting to restore finances and what not, slowly beginning to deliver Gaza to another entity (UN? EU?)
Or we don't conquer Gaza, but we reach a good monitoring solution that would significantly reduce Hamas' role. And then we have to lift the blockade and allow Gaza regain economic stability.

Either way I think Gazans suffered tremendously and we must list the blockade, if Hamas is disabled. Beyond goodwill, we also need to demonstrate there's a difference between how we treat Hamas, and how we treat Gazans.

By political wing, I mean the folks who are more amenable to a political solution. Meeshal, for example (who, granted, is part of the Damascus leadership), had been talking about a two state solution as a practical necessity.

As far as I can account, Hanyah is the more practical one, but he's being considered a left winger by his fellows.

Mashal is suspected to be the one that ruined the treaty with Fatah in 2006, by pushing ahead the Shalit kidnapping to foil it.

[Cort Haus]

Euros are cowards, so it makes them feel bad to see brave and good men for a change. Just beat them down every chance you get.

Tell that to the ghosts of those Europeans that fought and died against Nazism in the armies and resistance movements of WW2. Or to the civilians that defiantly carried on their lives in the blitz.

A more intelligent analysis of the propensity among many Europeans to oppose Israel in their conflict would point towards the propaganda campaign waged by their opponents, as someone mentioned above. I think that the position of Israel as a strategic, regional ally of the US during the cold war period would have strongly contributed to a more positive perception of Israel in the States.

[TCO]

Ah bull****, in Afghanistan, the Germans don't even fight. They've got the classic little brother attitude. Even with Kososvo right in their own back yard, they had to call for the Amis.

[SlowwHand]

I think Cort is more likely talking about England, which is a good point. You can't really lump everyone together. Sure, France sucks; but that's like saying the sun is hot.
It's kind of well-known.

[Cort Haus]

TCO, would that be the same Kosovo where the brave USAF bombed from such a huge height that they didn't know whether they were hitting a enemy military unit, a civilian train, bus, or refugee convoy?

Spare us the gung-ho nationalist crap and let's stick to the topic.

[Jon Miller]

A more intelligent analysis of the propensity among many Europeans to oppose Israel in their conflict would point towards the propaganda campaign waged by their opponents, as someone mentioned above. I think that the position of Israel as a strategic, regional ally of the US during the cold war period would have strongly contributed to a more positive perception of Israel in the States.

Honestly, Europe just has a much greater history of antisemitism then the US does. I think it plays a role.

JM