Canada's Opposition Parties Vow to Bring Down Government, 1 month into its term...

[Ben Kenobi]

I will not try to refute you but lets just say that I have a great deal of difficulty a number of the assertions you are making about the Liberal party. I don't think the result of this coalition on teh respective parties is in any way pre-ordained or certain

It's the nuclear option.

Dion had many other choices, and chose this one over better choices. Dion's best choice was to swallow the poison pill and allow the Liberal party to rebuild over time.

Why are you so confident that this is going to be smooth sailing for the Liberals? A tripartite coalition with a 9 seat majority? I can't believe the poly folks are so sanguine about their fortunes.

[Wezil]

I don't think anyone is. Any or all of the federal parties could end up wearing this. I think Flubber's point was that the Conservatives aren't exempt.

If the coalition manages somehow to function it will be worse for the Conservatives.

[Fake Boris]

Ben, will you ever cease to outdo yourself?

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't think anyone is. Any or all of the federal parties could end up wearing this.

Why would the Conservatives be worse off then they were going into this election?

I think Flubber's point was that the Conservatives aren't exempt.

If the coalition manages somehow to function it will be worse for the Conservatives.

I don't see any way the Conservatives could lose out. There is going to be an election, no matter what happens. If the parties all run their own separate campaigns, then the Conservatives will get their long awaited majority government.

How do the conservatives lose out? Any way you slice it the conservatives win.

IF the coalition holds together, IF the coalition manages to get in power in the first place, IF the coalition survives a confidence vote, all have to happen before the conservatives end up in a very strong minority government, stronger then they had under Martin. That returns us to Martin's last days in 2005, which was not a bad time for the Conservative party. Confidence motion after confidence motion until the government falls, or they can drag 9 defectors over.

[Wezil]

If conservative supporters and party members point fingers at the leadership for losing power then the party could suffer internal problems (or even split again). I realise you couldn't imagine this in your worst nightmare but it is a possible scenario. Notice: I said "possible" - not "likely" or "certain".

This "possibility" would be heightened if the coalition managed to govern responsibly b/c then the newly displaced conservatives could face the prospect of even longer on the opposition benches. Again the chance of party disunity increases.

You have to understand Ben, not all Canadians are frothing at the mouth like you and other rabid conservatives. Some of us understand how a parliamentary democracy works and despite the unusual nature of the whole affair aren't convinced the sky is falling.

[Ben Kenobi]

If conservative supporters and party members point fingers at the leadership for losing power then the party could suffer internal problems (or even split again).

This is why Dion's response is the absolute WORST decision. A few weeks ago I would agree that the conservatives would split. Now, he managed to get the same folks who have been bagging on him to feel like it's the whole world against them, and that they have to fight tooth and nail to keep Harper in.

You have to understand Ben, not all Canadians are frothing at the mouth like you and other rabid conservatives. Some of us understand how a parliamentary democracy works and despite the unusual nature of the whole affair aren't convinced the sky is falling.

Well of course not. They would be stroking off at the possibility of Prime Minister Dion.

Why would they be worried?

[Ben Kenobi]

So nice I said it twice!

[Wezil]

The public may react with outrage and disgust in the next few days, I just don't see it as certain. Quite frankly the whole thing has moved so quickly many people are still trying to catch up on events.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Wezil
NYE was not in favour of the Libs dodging confidence motions. I haven't heard that complaint this time round.

Oh piss off, you tosser.

When did I say I approved of Steve's Rules of Parliament?

You should reread that thread more closely. I was arguing for following precedents and traditions. I've said nowhere here that I approve of Harper going to Martinesque lengths to avoid the verdict of Parliament, and nor has he done that.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Well, if Rae, Ignatieff and Leblanc appeared together, it sounds like it's a done deal.

I'll be interested to see if all Liberal MPs show up at the appointed hour.

It would be very Liberal if 12 MPs (4 backers each of the contenders) suddenly have the flu, or get lost on a bus on the way to the Hill.

If they do show up, whoo hoo!

Originally posted by Wezil
I imagine many conservatives are feeling gobsmacked right about now.

I would imagine so.

However, since I've already stated I feel this coalition will give the Tories a majority in the end, and since I feel that a Tory minority trying to govern ATM runs the very real risk of ending up like Bennett or Campbell, I am not unhappy that Harper appears to be self-destructing.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by notyoueither


I'll be interested to see if all Liberal MPs show up at the appointed hour.

It would be very Liberal if 12 MPs (4 backers each of the contenders) suddenly have the flu, or get lost on a bus on the way to the Hill.

True that.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Oh piss off, you tosser.

When did I say I approved of Steve's Rules of Parliament?

You should reread that thread more closely. I was arguing for following precedents and traditions. I've said nowhere here that I approve of Harper going to Martinesque lengths to avoid the verdict of Parliament, and nor has he done that.

Toss right back at ya.

You did say proroguing parliament would be a good idea to let cooler heads prevail.

The only reason to prorogue is to avoid a confidence vote.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


How is the process 'undemocratic?' By any measurement the people of Canada overwhelmingly rejected Dion.

The only people who explicitly voted for or against Dion are the people in his riding.

You don't change the rules when you lose. You have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Changing the rules just because you lost is poor sportsmanship. Changing the rules in the middle of the game is also wrong.

What rule is being changed? No law is being changed.

[Bosh]

The simple fact is that is that last time around the Conservatives got 37.65% of the popular vote. They're never going to get the majority of the seats unless they increase that a bit, especially since I can't really envision the Conservatives leading a coalition government baring some kind of Grant Coalition. To get up to 45% of the vote or so they'd have to move to the center enough to risk another fracture with the loonies defecting again. Right now the liberals are organizationally screwed up so the Cons have a window of opportunity, but eventually the liberals will either get their act together or be replaced by someone else and the window will slam shut...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Bosh
The simple fact is that is that last time around the Conservatives got 37.65% of the popular vote. They're never going to get the majority of the seats unless they increase that a bit,

The Liberals have.