Massive Terract campaign in India

[chequita guevara]

Asher could be doing this better, but I think he's not really trying.

[Asher]

What are you talking about, I clearly spend a lot of time contemplating on the issues of Israel, a country I care deeply about.

[Dr Strangelove]

I just watched a news report, two local people, Alan Scherr and his daughter Naomi, age 13, were killed during the initial attacks. Alan was in Mumbai to attend a conference on "high tech meditation", a technique which he developed.

[Dinner]

BBC is reporting that they're still hearing explosions and gun fire coming from the Taj Mahal Palace Hotel in Bombay/Mumbai. They say they don't know if it's just Indian Army personnel using grenades to clear rooms or if there is still fighting going on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7754676.stm

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Asher

You don't believe in God at all? Then why live in Israel? Why do you and your ilk cause so much death and horror by living in contested land when the land itself is not at all important?

I can understand why religious people live in Israel, but not secular people. Are you just sadists?

I can not believe that you are so profoundly ignorant that you are not aware that historically the world has not allowed 'secular' Jews to separate themselves from practising Jews. Do you think the Nazis ever bothered to ask their victims whether they were religious or not? Do you think that once the Soviet Union decided that Israel was an enemy and all Jews therefore suspect that it made the distinction between religious and non-religious Jews? You must be the only person in western civilization who doesn't realise that Jewishness is as much an ethnicity as a religion.

[TCO]

Even as a religion, it has an ethnic slant to it. No?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I can not believe that you are so profoundly ignorant that you are not aware that historically the world has not allowed 'secular' Jews to separate themselves from practising Jews. Do you think the Nazis ever bothered to ask their victims whether they were religious or not? Do you think that once the Soviet Union decided that Israel was an enemy and all Jews therefore suspect that it made the distinction between religious and non-religious Jews? You must be the only person in western civilization who doesn't realise that Jewishness is as much an ethnicity as a religion.

Jewishness as an ethnicity is because of the religion as a MAJOR influence. That's fine, I don't care about the differences.

But there's no reason at all for secular Jewish people to displace Palestinians, etc just because it's their HOLY LAND (secular holy land!), because they were persecuted. The jews were not the only people slaughtered by nazis, homosexuals were as well.

Why don't the homosexuals annex Alabama and make it the Holy Land for teh gay? Sure it'd displace people and create conflict, but who cares? We want our own nation.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Asher


Jewishness as an ethnicity is because of the religion as a MAJOR influence. That's fine, I don't care about the differences.

But there's no reason at all for Jewish people to displace Palestinians, etc just because it's their HOLY LAND (secular holy land!), because they were persecuted.

Where else were they to go? You're not old enough to realise how ubiquitous anti-semitism was at that time. When was the last time you heard someone say "Man, you really go Jewed on that deal?" You don't hear that kind of talk anymore, but when I was a kid it was very common. It wasn't just the South. I remember in school in Syracuse, NY teachers allowing Jewish kids to say they were Catholic in order to escape ridicule. I'm pretty sure this was common in Canada and the UK too. In Europe after the end of the war Jews liberated from the concentration camps often were not allowed to go back home by their former, pre-war neighbors. There were numerous incidents of liberated Jews being beaten up or killed in their home villages, and not just in Eastern Europe. The UK and the US set quotas on Jewish immigrants. They had no where to go.

The jews were not the only people slaughtered by nazis, homosexuals were as well.

Why don't the homosexuals annex Alabama and make it the Holy Land for teh gay?

Sure, go for it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Where else were they to go? You're not old enough to realise how ubiquitous anti-semitism was at that time. When was the last time you heard someone say "Man, you really go Jewed on that deal?" You don't hear that kind of talk anymore, but when I was a kid it was very common.

Was it as common as "gay" is an insult today?

Even if it was, doesn't mean we deserve the right to displace others to form our own country. There are lots of desolate places they can move to, places with less conflict and less neighbors that hate them. The decision to put Israel where it is only serves as an engine of death and destruction right now.

And even if it WAS in the past, it's NOT now. That's why I don't understand why secular people would choose to live in that country. They can move to virtually any western country and live happily. One that is not in a state of war all the time and under terrorist threat. One without mandatory military service. One without pervasive religious influence on your life...

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
You can "abuse" muslims all you want, just don't cry when people hit you back when your history is just as checkered.

the only problem in your argument is that my religion's history isn't as checkered, and the conflict with the palestinians is not a relgious one, albiet it is slowly becoming so

This whole "good guy" and "bad guy" bull**** with religion pisses me the hell off. Christians and Jews genuinely believe the Muslims are the bad guys, and the Muslims genuinely believe the Christians and Jews are the bad guys.

That's great theory, but in order to have anything to say on the topic of religions, you should at least not be so ignorant about them byond the regular atheist "religion is bad, mmmkay" attitude.

Originally posted by Asher
You don't believe in God at all? Then why live in Israel? Why do you and your ilk cause so much death and horror by living in contested land when the land itself is not at all important?

The land is indeed important for historical and cultural-pathos reasons. I realize that this is something incredibly difficult to understand for a person in such a young nation such as canada, which has no unique pathos nor an unique ethnical groups.

Europeans can better relate to my decision to live in Israel.

If history would have went another way and a Jewish land would have set up in Argentina, I might have went there, and I might have not. We'll never know.

I can understand why religious people live in Israel, but not secular people. Are you just sadists?

This is an incredibly stupid question.

Most of my people's history revolves around Israel, and wherever else they went they were not accepted and shunned. Most of my cultural heritage talks about Israel and Jerusalem.

According to your logic, all people who live in the US must be sadist colonialists who hate the Indians, and despise the european monarchies.

The flag from the 16th century? It's not secular, but you know very well what my opinion is on England. If you're trying to make a point by comparing Israel to 16th century England, your point is made, and I thank you for saving me the time.

I don't know what your opinion about England. Is it as obtuse?

You have several European countries with flags that contain crosses, or emblems, who are secular and democratic.

I guess the fact that you live in a new country with little history, without a unique ancient culture, and without a unique ethnicity, makes it very difficult to understand concepts such as national pathos, cultural-heritage, and yes, even religious-heritage, without actually being religious.

[GePap]

Zionist aspirations in the age of nationalism and given the persecution faced by members of the Diaspora are completely understandable. But the inhabitants of Palestine were (and are) just as worthy of consideration as anyone else. Unfortunately, they were treated like countless non-European populations were, as an afterthought, or an obstacle. This more than anything is why most countries around the world sympathize with the Palestinians more than Israelis (as opposed to some ingrained anti-semitism). Most non-Europeans around the world can see more of their history in how the Palestinians were supposed to disappear or accept being removed than they can in the story of Zionism, even if all of them also had their own nationalist inspirations.

Going back to the actual thread topic, this thing has been going on for three days and information remains a pain in the ass to get - the Indian authorities are not looking that competent at this point.

[Sirotnikov]

Why don't the homosexuals annex Alabama and make it the Holy Land for teh gay? Sure it'd displace people and create conflict, but who cares? We want our own nation.

Was Alabama or the holy land ever a place that was historically gay?
Did the ancestors of all the world's gays live there, consisting a unique, self governed political entity?
Do all gay people share a heritage that has to do with those places?


The only thing that comes close for gays in the U.S. is San Francisco

but then again - its not like all gays were ever concentrated there, as a single political authority

[Sirotnikov]

But the inhabitants of Palestine were (and are) just as worthy of consideration as anyone else. Unfortunately, they were treated like countless non-European populations were, as an afterthought, or an obstacle.

I basically agree with this.

Many early Zionist writers assumed the arabs would be terribly happy to see us come and live as citizens in a Jewish state.
Later writers talked about a federalist country with a jewish and an arab states.

Only after it was clear that those arab elements that saw the Jews as potential allies were a minority, and the (somewhat racist) Husseini clan a majority, that more serious discussion of the conflict with local arabs arose.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
the only problem in your argument is that my religion's history isn't as checkered

Keep telling yourself that. It isn't AS checkered, and you act like it's not. Are you saying no atrocities have been committed in the name of Judaism?

That's great theory, but in order to have anything to say on the topic of religions, you should at least not be so ignorant about them byond the regular atheist "religion is bad, mmmkay" attitude.

What else do you need to know? Studying stupidity in depth only makes you more stupid.

The land is indeed important for historical and cultural-pathos reasons. I realize that this is something incredibly difficult to understand for a person in such a young nation such as canada, which has no unique pathos nor an unique ethnical groups.

Because it's only important because you make it important. It's land, it doesn't matter. I've lived on the east coast, the west coast, Canada, US...it's all land. My family comes historically from the UK, so how is that any different than your cultural origins in the Israel area? You don't have to live there just because people did thousands of years ago, especially when living there causes countless people to die.

This is an incredibly stupid question.

Most of my people's history revolves around Israel

Most of my people's history revolves around England

and wherever else they went they were not accepted and shunned.

Gee, I wonder what that's like.

Most of my cultural heritage talks about Israel and Jerusalem.

Most of my cultural heritage talks about England and Scotland.

According to your logic, all people who live in the US must be sadist colonialists who hate the Indians, and despise the european monarchies.

Not sure how that is all related to my logic. FWIW, that stereotype is sadly, more or less true, but that's neither here nor there...

I don't know what your opinion about England. Is it as obtuse?

You have several European countries with flags that contain crosses, or emblems, who are secular and democratic.

Yes, which are all from the OLD times. OLD. Not 1949 old. OLD OLD.

I guess the fact that you live in a new country with little history, without a unique ancient culture, and without a unique ethnicity, makes it very difficult to understand concepts such as national pathos, cultural-heritage, and yes, even religious-heritage, without actually being religious.

The problem here is it's you that does not understand. Just because I live in a "new" country doesn't mean I don't have cultural history with a unique ethnicity. All ethnicities are unique, for christ sake. The stupidity of this conversation angers me. Just because Jewish people tend to be nationalistic doesn't mean it's okay, or other people don't understand. Maybe other people are just more enlightened and understand that nationalism is not the answer. Maybe other people realize that just because their "ethnic origins" begin in some other place, they don't need to live there. Some day, you may discover that, but until then don't you pretend that it's you that is misunderstood...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Was Alabama or the holy land ever a place that was historically gay?

I'm glad you now admit that "holy land" is the crux. How can a "holy land" be secular?

You're entirely inconsistent in your arguments. Israel's presence where it is causes conflicts, yes? Israel is where it is because it is the "holy land", yes? "Holy land" is a religious concept, yes?

My original point stands, despite your spam and smoke and mirrors.