Massive Terract campaign in India

[Asher]

Originally posted by Winston
I will attack Islam in the context of something like this, yes. Compassion doesn't enter into it. Did you show any, by the way?

Look at how many people Christians have killed in the name of religion compared to Islam and get back to me.

[Winston]

You're a moron, but what else is new.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Winston
You're a moron, but what else is new.

Did you look it up? You may be surprised.

[Cort Haus]

Sirotnikov

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
My time is valuable, I'm not wasting it on a fool's errand.

Well you should sit quietly then, because even a google search would prove you wrong. Are you slowly turning into BK?

There's no way you can call this, in any way, a secular movement.

A quick google would have kept you from appearing silly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

The modern movement was mainly secular in its origins, beginning largely as a response by European Jewry to antisemitism across Europe. It is a branch of the broader phenomenon of modern nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism#The_Historic_and_Religious_Origins_of_Zionism

The Age of Enlightenment in Europe led to an 18th and 19th century Jewish enlightenment movement in Europe, called the Haskalah. In 1791, the French Revolution led France to become the first country in Europe to grant Jews legal equality. Britain gave Jews equal rights in 1856, Germany in 1871. The spread of western liberal ideas among newly emancipated Jews created for the first time a class of secular Jews who absorbed the prevailing ideas of rationalism, romanticism and, most importantly, nationalism.

Ibid.

The Dreyfus Affair, which erupted in France in 1894, profoundly shocked emancipated Jews. The depth of antisemitism in a country thought of as the home of enlightenment and liberty led many to question their future security in Europe. Among those [...] Theodor Herzl, [...] He described the Affair as a personal turning point, Before the Affair, Herzl had been anti-Zionist; afterwards he became ardently pro-Zionist. In line with the ideas of 19th century German nationalism Herzl believed in a Jewish state for the Jewish nation. In that way, he argued, the Jews could become a people like all other peoples, and antisemitism would cease to exist.

ibid.

Herzl's strategy relied on winning support [...] He also made efforts to cultivate Orthodox rabbinical support. Rabbinical support depended on the Zionist movement making no challenges to existing Jewish tradition. However, an opposition movement arose which emphasized the need for a revolution in Jewish thought.
[...]

Under Herzl's leadership, Zionism won orthodox Jewish support. However, cultural and socialist Zionists increasingly broke with tradition and used language contrary to the outlook of most religious Jewish communities. As a result, many religious organizations opposed Zionism, both on the grounds that it was a secular movement and on the grounds that any attempt to re-establish Jewish rule in Israel by human agency was blasphemous, since (in their view) only the Messiah could accomplish this.

So sayeth lord Google from the holy scripture of Wikipedia.

As you can see, not only do I tear up people who make assertions in fields they know nothing about -- I also tear up people who make assertions in which they obsess over.

Yes, I feel incredibly torn up

Admit defeat and go to bed.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Well you should sit quietly then, because even a google search would prove you wrong. Are you slowly turning into BK?


A quick google would have kept you from appearing silly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism#The_Historic_and_Religious_Origins_of_Zionism

This contradicts your claim that:

Zionism was born as an entirely secular concept.

Ibid.


ibid.



So sayeth lord Google from the holy scripture of Wikipedia.


Yes, I feel incredibly torn up

Admit defeat and go to bed.

Dunno what your problem is, but there's no way a concept such as Zionism is secular. Even the term itself references Judaism. It was proposed by a Jewish nationalist.

The conventional wisdom in Israel may be that Zionism began as a secular concept, but in the real world we understand that a concept that revolves around a "homeland for the Jewish people" is not a secular concept.

The origins for the idea of Zionism is even traced back to the Torah. Please explain to me how an idea from the Torah is secular.

[Cort Haus]

Asher, is it possible that you are confusing an ethnicity with a religion? In this case, they are not always the same thing.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Asher, is it possible that you are confusing an ethnicity with a religion? In this case, they are not always the same thing.

No.

The concept of Zionism gets traced all the way back to the Torah. The idea is for a Jewish homeland as well.

This is 100% religion.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
Look at how many people Christians have killed in the name of religion compared to Islam and get back to me.

No one is denying history.

But two differences remain today:

1) Christianity has grown up and grew out of its militant phase with the enlightenment, and even slightly before. Islam has grown up, but not as much and has began reverting back during the 20th century and its complete defeat to the west and the turks.

2) Jesus, the main prophet of Christianity preaches tolerance, turning the other cheek and prefers to die for people's sins. Mohammad on the other hand is a sneaky warmongering figure, that destroys unbelievers. That is just one of several differences that dictate key differences in philosophy of the two religions.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

No one is denying history.

But two differences remain today:

1) Christianity has grown up and grew out of its militant phase with the enlightenment, and even slightly before.

Christianity still has a long way to grow up. They act like petulant children, hardcore Christians like Ben Kenobi insist that if teh gays get marriage then his marriage isn't as important anymore. He just won't share.

[Asher]

Siro, explain how this is secular in any way also:

During the First Zionist Congress, the following agreement, commonly known as the Basel Program, was reached:

Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Eretz-Israel secured under public law. The Congress contemplates the following means to the attainment of this end:

1. The promotion by appropriate means of the settlement in Eretz-Israel of Jewish farmers, artisans, and manufacturers.
2. The organization and uniting of the whole of Jewry by means of appropriate institutions, both local and international, in accordance with the laws of each country.
3. The strengthening and fostering of Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness.
4. Preparatory steps toward obtaining the consent of governments, where necessary, in order to reach the goals of Zionism.[19]

I'm seeing an awful lot of qualifiers beginning with "Jew", which really is curious if it is secular.

[Cort Haus]

I still think it can imply ethnicity rather than religion. If, for example, the Roma were to seek a territory of their own, they might make a similarly worded claim without a religion being central.

[GePap]

This is about the only time I can say I agree with Siro. The Zionist movement began as a secular movement, inspired by European nationalism, itself an outgrowth of the French Revolution.

Early Zionist leaders were not known for their piety, and in fact the most anti-Zionist jews are ultra-orthodox sects that believe that Zionism is heretical.

Jewish here is defined as an ethnicity - it is not a measure whatsoever of piety or devotion to Jewish religious rites.

[Asher]

Originally posted by GePap
This is about the only time I can say I agree with Siro. The Zionist movement began as a secular movement, inspired by European nationalism, itself an outgrowth of the French Revolution.

Early Zionist leaders were not known for their piety, and in fact the most anti-Zionist jews are ultra-orthodox sects that believe that Zionism is heretical.

Jewish here is defined as an ethnicity - it is not a measure whatsoever of piety or devotion to Jewish religious rites.

Here's a perhaps stupid question -- are there any people who are Jewish (the ethnicity) while not being Jewish (the religion)? If so, are they any significant numbers?

I really, really hate it when people play with semantics to obfuscate the real issues like this. You're all on notice.

[Asher]

It appears even "so-called Secular Jews" are extremely influenced by the religion of Judaism so drawing a distinction in the context of Judaism as an engine of conflict, as Siro did, is purely douchebaggery semantics.