Massive Terract campaign in India

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
This contradicts your claim that:

Zionism was born as an entirely secular concept.

Then you fail at reading comprehension, because you skimmed the main body of text.

My quotes explain how Zionism is a modern, secular movement, rooted in the concepts of nationalism and self-declaration. Yes it builds on a shared cultural/religious pathos, but is not lead by religion.

The cultural-religious pathos tying Jews to Israel was there for 19 centuries prior to that, and it was not called Zionism. The difference that Zionism made was that secular people who all but abandoned religion (as the majority of zionists were liberal or socialist) suddenly felt that building a state for the Jewish people is a good solution to current problems. This did not bring more people to identify more with the Torah, nor did it bring any of the new comers to synagogues.

Most prominent early Zionist writers support their writing in secular ideas such as nationalism, self-declaration, and practical issues (failure of emancipation, russian pogroms). They don't use the torah.

Israel in Hertzel's writings is a secular country, akin to Britain. Not a religious one.

Dunno what your problem is, but there's no way a concept such as Zionism is secular. Even the term itself references Judaism. It was proposed by a Jewish nationalist.

Of course it would reference Judaism, because it is a common cultural heritage all Jews share, even if they are secular and atheist.

Unless you're suggesting that historical Jewish existence in Israel is a purely religious fabrication based on faith alone, your point is void.

Perhaps you're confused by the fact that the word "Jewish" is used to describe both a religion ("Judiasm") and a people/nationhood ("Jewery/ Hebrews?")

The conventional wisdom in Israel may be that Zionism began as a secular concept, but in the real world we understand that a concept that revolves around a "homeland for the Jewish people" is not a secular concept.

Is a homeland for Greek people a hellenistic concept?
Is a unified Italy a Roman religious concept? Or a catholic one?

The only difference is that many Jews still believe in Judaism to some extent. But the early Zionists were secular, if not atheistic.

As my quotes show, the majority of religious groups thought in the 19th century could not stand the idea of a self-made homeland for the Jewish people before the messiah.

The origins for the idea of Zionism is even traced back to the Torah. Please explain to me how an idea from the Torah is secular.

The origins for the idea of Zionism is traced to the historical fact that a Jewish people used to live in a place called Israel with a capital built on mount Zion.

That group of people, managed to keep a common cultural ethos and (until 18th century) a common religious faith.

Torah is great stuff, but neither Hertzel, nor Pinsker used it in their argument. Even the Israeli decleration of independance, purposefully omits the word God and talks not of religion but of "Israel's place among the nations".


And aren't we getting awfully away from the main topic of the thread?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Then you fail at reading comprehension, because you skimmed the main body of text.

Your quote is "mostly".
You said "entirely".
One of us fails at reading comprehension, and it ain't the one with the black **** avatar.

And aren't we getting awfully away from the main topic of the thread?

Not really. Religion as a source of conflict, including Judaism, is fair game.

You may not like it, but it's true. Religious people are insecure like that.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
Siro, explain how this is secular in any way also:

I'm seeing an awful lot of qualifiers beginning with "Jew", which really is curious if it is secular.

Then you really are confused by the semantics.

The words Jewish people, Jewery and so on DO NOT refer to people who are of Jewish faith, but to people who are by cultural heritage related to the Hebrews (And their faith), and genetically decended from them.

Before you argue about semantics you have to learn what they mean.

Originally posted by Asher
Here's a perhaps stupid question -- are there any people who are Jewish (the ethnicity) while not being Jewish (the religion)? If so, are they any significant numbers?

Yes.
The 60% majority in Israel are secular.

Of all Jews, it is probably closer to 70%-80% who are "ethnically jewish" while not observing religion nor having a clear faith.

But secular != atheist.

I really, really hate it when people play with semantics to obfuscate the real issues like this. You're all on notice.

You're the one confusing semantics.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
It appears even "so-called Secular Jews" are extremely influenced by the religion of Judaism so drawing a distinction in the context of Judaism as an engine of conflict, as Siro did, is purely douchebaggery semantics.

This is just like judeo-christian values, and stories are a major influence on most of the western world.

Most jews view the Torah as a cultural heritage, and not the word of god. This is true for world Jews and Israeli Jews.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Yes.
The 60% majority in Israel are secular.

This is simply a perversion of the word "secular"...

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher

Your quote is "mostly".
You said "entirely".
One of us fails at reading comprehension, and it ain't the one with the black **** avatar.

you fail first, because my quote said "mainly".
also, who is arguing semantics now?

Not really. Religion as a source of conflict, including Judaism, is fair game.

Judaism is indeed a source of conflict, albeit a passive one, as it brings some people to be anti-semitic. Also it causes Jews to argue among themselves.

The last time Jews conquered land because God told them so was during the times of Joshua, some 1000 BC.
The conquests of David and so forth are political.

You may not like it, but it's true. Religious people are insecure like that.

You're also wrong about that, because religious people are very secure in their views. Nothing beats blind faith.

Face it, you wanted to jab one against Judaism in the name of "fairness" but failed miserably because you have no idea about it.

I appreciate your crusade for what you perceive to be fairness, seeing that I go around attacking Islam.

What you have to note is that I took a course on Islam, and one on modern Arab history, so I'm not raising baseless accusations I read on the internets.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
you fail first, because my quote said "mainly".
also, who is arguing semantics now?

It's a massive difference in meaning, the difference between you being right and you being wrong.

Judaism is indeed a source of conflict

So why are you arguing with the point?

You're also wrong about that, because religious people are very secure in their views.

If that were true, religious people wouldn't persecute others as they do. They wouldn't need to have churches and synagogues to reinforce the brainwashing and keep people in line. Gays would be permitted to marry, too.

What you have to note is that I took a course on Islam, and one on modern Arab history, so I'm not raising baseless accusations I read on the internets.

I get it, you wanted to show the courses had value. But you've now just conceded that my original point was correct (re: Judaism as a source of conflict), which kind of raises the question of WTF are you ranting for?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Asher

Here's a perhaps stupid question -- are there any people who are Jewish (the ethnicity) while not being Jewish (the religion)? If so, are they any significant numbers?

Yes. I know dozens personaly, including my best friend from high school, two of my neighbors, several co-workers, so forth and so on.

I define them as not Jewish in the religious sense because some don't profess a belief in God (various are atheists), they don't attend temple and they don't follow Jewish law (either in diet, honoring the Sabbath, or in their dress). yet they define themselves as Jews and follow Jewish customs like Channukah, or Passover, or Yom Kippur, much like you celebrate Chrismas traditions as an atheist.

Most are also supporters of the idea of Zionism, but many of them don't like the orthodox Jewish community.

As for their numbers, I would say that such Jews make up a significant portion of the Diaspora in the Western world, and there are a fair number of them in Israel itself, particulalrly amongst the new immigrants from the Soviet Union.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher


This is simply a perversion of the word "secular"...

you lose again:

Secular
1 a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal
b: not overtly or specifically religious
c: not ecclesiastical or clerical

a. Zionism relates to a worldly temporal conern of a nation for a group of people
b. Zionism is not overtly or specifically religious.
c. Zionism is not run or lead by clerics or similar figures.

[Asher]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes. I know dozens personaly, including my best friend from high school, two of my neighbors, several co-workers, so forth and so on.

I define them as not Jewish in the religious sense because some don't profess a belief in God (various are atheists), they don't attend temple and they don't follow Jewish law (either in diet, honoring the Sabbath, or in their dress). yet they define themselves as Jews and follow Jewish customs like Channukah, or Passover, or Yom Kippur, much like you celebrate Chrismas traditions as an atheist.

That's ridiculous. So people who identify as Christian when they don't go to church, read the bible, etc are an ethnicity too?

It sounds like people whose ancestors were Jewish (the religion) still classify themselves as Jewish, as some ethnicity. That's immensely stupid.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


you lose again:


a. Zionism relates to a worldly temporal conern of a nation for a group of people

A group of people as classified by their roots in...religion?

b. Zionism is not overtly or specifically religious.

Except its undeniable relationship with the religion of Judaism. You're lying straight to my face if you're saying Israel is a secular state, or that the concept of Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
It's a massive difference in meaning, the difference between you being right and you being wrong.

now you're just being BK again

If that were true, religious people wouldn't persecute others as they do. They wouldn't need to have churches and synagogues to reinforce the brainwashing and keep people in line. Gays would be permitted to marry, too.

So what has Zionism ever do to your gay rights?
If anything it saved thousands of arab and palestinian gays from stoning and abuse, and Tel Aviv is one of the most gay friendly cities in the world.

I get it, you wanted to show the courses had value. But you've now just conceded that my original point was correct (re: Judaism as a source of conflict), which kind of raises the question of WTF are you ranting for?

*sigh* You know well it was a joke

Unless you're seriously willing to catch me up on saying that Judaism is the cause of anti-semitism.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Asher


That's ridiculous. So people who identify as Christian when they don't go to church, read the bible, etc are an ethnicity too?

Given that Christianity is a universalists faith while Juaism isn't, the comparison is not very good. At the same time, there are many ethnicities that do consider Christianity as an essential part of itself. This is why secular Europeans might celebrate Chrismas overseas even though that is an explicitly religious holiday.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

now you're just being BK again


So what has Zionism ever do to your gay rights?

I'm speaking in general terms, but one of the biggest anti-gay bullies in my highschool was an Orthodox Jew.

If anything it saved thousands of arab and palestinian gays from stoning and abuse, and Tel Aviv is one of the most gay friendly cities in the world.

Yeah, that's the hottest gay tourist destination in the world. LET'S GO TO ISRAEL! PARTY!

*sigh* You know well it was a joke

Unless you're seriously willing to catch me up on saying that Judaism is the cause of anti-semitism.

You're squirming.

Yes or no: is Judaism a source of conflict?

[Asher]

Originally posted by GePap


Given that Christianity is a universalists faith while Juaism isn't, the comparison is not very good. At the same time, there are many ethnicities that do consider Christianity as an essential part of itself. This is why secular Europeans might celebrate Chrismas overseas even though that is an explicitly religious holiday.

Christmas isn't an explicitly religious holiday anymore. It's a celebration of materialism and family.