Massive Terract campaign in India

[GePap]

Originally posted by Asher


Christmas isn't an explicitly religious holiday anymore. It's a celebration of materialism and family.

That is what secular folks turned Christmas into because they wanted to keep the holiday tradition (because it was an ingrained part of their culture) at the same time that they left behind its religious significance.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
A group of people as classified by their roots in...religion?

a group of people classified by a common cultural heritage.

Like Gepap said, the fact you celebrate christmass does not make you religious.

by your logic you are also very religious because the name Asher comes from the Torah.
Why did your parents call you a name from the Torah, you religious freak? Unless they were ....RELIGIOUS JEWS!!!

Except its undeniable relationship with the religion of Judaism. You're lying straight to my face if you're saying Israel is a secular state, or that the concept of Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism.

You have not brought one material argument disproving that Zionism was a secular concept and a secular movement.

I have completely disproved and obliterated your argument:

your religion is the reason your country exists.

Now you are trying to deflect the material issue to semantics, similar to what BK did when he argued about what is a bet and so on.

It is apparent so you are misstating my original argument to attempt to win semanics, instead of dealing with issues.

I'll remind people what I said:

And my country does not exist because of religion, but rather because a lack of it.

Zionism was born as an entirely secular concept.

The word 'entirely' is not crucial to my claim.

Zionism has its name taken from the Torah. So do you. That does not make either of you a product of religion.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
I'm speaking in general terms, but one of the biggest anti-gay bullies in my highschool was an Orthodox Jew.

Was he very orthodox? He must have hated Zionists too

Yeah, that's the hottest gay tourist destination in the world. LET'S GO TO ISRAEL! PARTY!

You're squirming.

Me?
Riiiiight....

Originally posted by Asher
Christmas isn't an explicitly religious holiday anymore. It's a celebration of materialism and family.

So is Pesakh (passover) a family holiday, and Purim a children's holiday, and Shavuot a dairy holiday, and Chanuka a fat-food and candles holiday.

[Boris Godunov]

So if Zionism was secular, why didn't they just carve a nice bit of land out of Eastern Europe for the Jewish State? Why did it have to be Israel?

[Asher]

You're lying! They're all Jewish holidays. I'm secular and don't celebrate them.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Asher
You're squirming.

Yes or no: is Judaism a source of conflict?

I'm not a Jew, but I live near a good many. And we are not in conflict.

Islam is a source of conflict, and it is inherently so.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Felch


I'm not a Jew, but I live near a good many. And we are not in conflict.

Islam is a source of conflict, and it is inherently so.

Ask someone in the ME the same question.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Felch


I'm not a Jew, but I live near a good many. And we are not in conflict.

Islam is a source of conflict, and it is inherently so.

I live near a good many Muslims. Frankly, probably a whole load more than in whatever crap town you live, yet I'm not having any issues with them.

[Zevico]

Yes, Judaism forms a part of the reason the state of Israel exists. In this sense the state is 'Jewish'. In this sense it is also black, white, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and everything else. There is no arguing this point. Everything interacts with and leads to everything else.

If the question is whether the Jewish state was founded upon a religious ideology, then I think that the answer is no, with a reservation. Zionism was originally a secular ideology that was, in a limited sense, related to the religion of Judaism in that both revered the land of Israel. For the religious Jew this land had a particular religious significance; for the secular founders of the Israeli State, the land of Biblical Israel had a significance that they claim was of a historical nature: this was the land in which Jews had lived, some millenia ago.
For religious Jews, however, the idea of 'Religious Zionism' was an anathema for almost the entire history of the Jewish exile, spanning over a thousand years. Jewish religious doctrine had it that the establishment of the State would come only when the Jewish Messiah would arrive, and not before. For this reason any sort of Religious Jewish Zionism was a heretical doctrine for a very long time.
You would be hard-pressed to blame the religious Jews that lived just prior to the establishment of the State of Israel for having effected the establishment of the state. They simply did not take an active part in it at all. To describe socialists such as Ben Gurion and the Israeli Labour Party (circa the 40's, not today) as a 'religious' makes a mockery of the term.
This is not a defence of Judaism as such. Such a defence cannot be effected; 'religions' as such have become so generally defined that you cannot call someone a Jew or a Christian and from there actually summarise the beliefs that he holds as to how he ought to live and how society ought to be structured. Also, their beliefs as to how society ought to be strucuted can no longer be entirely attributed to the reading of particular religious texts. American Christians, for example, believe that it is right that they should live in a democratic state: but where is 'democracy', 'elections' or 'Constitution' in the Bible?

[Asher]

Saying Judaism is a source of conflict is not the same thing as saying every Jew is a source of conflict...

[Felch]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
I live near a good many Muslims. Frankly, probably a whole load more than in whatever crap town you live, yet I'm not having any issues with them.

I'm not having any issues with Muslims that I live near, but apparently the people in Mumbai are.

[Zevico]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So if Zionism was secular, why didn't they just carve a nice bit of land out of Eastern Europe for the Jewish State? Why did it have to be Israel?

1. Eastern European enmity for persons of the Jewish faith is what drove Jews to embrace Zionism in the first place. I doubt that Jews would be pleased to live near people who for so long were responsible for their murders and what have you.
2. Historical/cultural/religious significance of Israel to Jews gave Jews more motivation to move there. Incidentally there was a debate on where the modern Jewish State ought to have been located.

[Chemical Ollie]

I want to know more about the origins of Hindu civilization

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Felch


I'm not having any issues with Muslims that I live near, but apparently the people in Mumbai are.

I'm not having any issues with Jews that I live near, but apparently the people in Gaza are.

[BeBMan]

I'm not having any issues with people that I live near, and if people don't want to live near me it's their own fault.