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  • Originally posted by TCO


    That said, the Isr. are pissed since the attack was against Jews. They feel that all Jews are really citizens of Isr.
    Ethnic or religion?
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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    • That depends. Read up on the Ethiopian Jews/Falash Mura.
      "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

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      • Originally posted by Asher


        Ethnic or religion?
        ETHNIC! They are the CHOZEN. Don't you get it?

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        • Originally posted by TCO
          And the ****ing Arab scum love to push sht against the Jews. They rip them way harder than the Jews do in return. (in discrimination, in media portrayals).
          Put in a far more politically correct way [and without the rather ironic racism]:

          1. Racism is a major problem in most Middle Eastern countries.
          2. For many years, Middle Eastern governments (with the exception of Israel) imposed odious press restrictions upon journalists and anyone willing to speak out against the regime. At the same time they used state-controlled media to churn out 'state friendly' news broadcasts.
          3. Propaganda is a means by which the ruling class/government of these societies may distract the remainder of society from the overarching problems that the society in question faces. Corruption, nepotism and repression are all irrelevant so long as there exists a demonic enemy controlling the strings of the world.
          4. Israeli society also faces a problem of racism. It is more difficult to quantify and characterise this problem, however, as most of the press in Israel opposes racism.

          Briefly, racism in Israel exists--
          - as between Jews and Arabs [a product of the Arab-Israeli conflict and, in the case of European Jews, a feeling of cultural superiority]
          - as between European/Western/White Jews, and other Jews (e.g. ethnic Arab Jews) [a product of the conflict and feelings of cultural superiority]
          - as between Jews, Arabs and foreign workers/anyone else. [cultural superiority/foreigness]

          Still, thus far most of the public votes for and supports explicitly non-racist political parties. So while there is discrimination in Israel along these lines, it has not translated to legal discrimination or such discrimination that would otherwise on a practical level render Israel an illiberal/undemocratic country as a whole. Moreover, the problem is explicitly acknowledged and addressed in Israel. Outside of Israel and in the Arab countries of the Middle East, such is not the case. Racism is endemic, but society as a whole (and the government) appears to support it.
          "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

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          • Well...the Jews ARE culturally superior to the Arabs.

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            • Originally posted by TCO
              Columbine was screwed up because the regular police did not enter as executions were occurring. Waiting for SWAT. This tact has now changed. BTW, my training for ship's defensxe force (I was NWSO and the division officer in charge of all small arms) was that you stormed entry if hostages started getting shot (preferablly from both sides).
              The Navy prefers that hostages on its ships be shot from both sides? That just makes no sense at all. Does the Navy prefer to execute its own men rather than have them perish at the hands of terrorists? Is this some sort of Blazing Saddles policy?
              "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

              Comment


              • Late to the thread.

                On the attacks - Both b/c it's a horrible thing to do and because it seems the response was... underwhelming.

                On the threadjack - I think "oy" sums it up well.

                -Arrian
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Elok
                  I don't contest that. What I contest is GePap's continuing and ridiculous assertion that Christianity (presumptively he's not just referring to modern Protestants) is not a "community" faith, combined with the bizarre notion that it never had the glory days Judaism got. Quick: explain how Charlemagne beating the snot out of the Saxons to make them renounce Thor is totally different from Joshua conquering Canaan. Also, distinguish Hagia Sophia and St. Peter's from Solomon's Temple.

                  EDIT: xpost, in case it isn't obvious.
                  Which great Christian military victory is written about IN THE BIBLE? What Christian rulers did isn't relevant to a discussion of the articles of faith of the religion.

                  As for the communty aspect - humans are communal beings - the question is, what daily rituals are Christians to perform as they live their daily lives an interact with other specific members of their community? Are there any injunctions about charity giving? Keeping the sabbath holy? The way community members must dress?

                  There are a few Christian sects that have attempted such an approach, most famous are the Menonites, but they are seen as curio, an anomaly within the Christian sects.

                  So the question to you Elok is this: can a Christian be a good Christian if they never go to church and never show outward religious devotion. Why or why not?
                  If you don't like reality, change it! me
                  "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                  "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                  "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                  • Originally posted by Sirotnikov

                    Huh?
                    How about the Roman holy empire?
                    How about the 2nd Roman holy empire?
                    How about ruling over europe and directing forces to reconquer
                    How about the force christianity enjoyed in middle ages spain? it late middle ages italy?

                    Christianity certainly had a huge control and dominance of people's lives and politics at some point.

                    Judaism's religious authority has never ever been as strong, neither in bible times, nor later. The only thing coming close is the current Rabbi courts, which isn't different from modern pious church communities.
                    As I told Elok, this is an issue of theology, not history.

                    You call Islam militaristic as compared to Christianity because of the alleged different messages of Jesus and Mohammed - yet historically speaking, Christianity spread itself just as viciously and bloodily. And it was Christians who took the most violent actions against the Jews while they were religiously minded. While Mohammed might have been no friend of the jews of Mecca, I can't think of a single great Muslim state that expelled all its Jews, unlike England in the 13th century and Spain in the 15th.

                    Christianities age of power comes AFTER its most important holy writing had been laid down - again, all those empires you mention aren't mentioned in the bible. They are things that happen AFTER. In Islam, Mohammed creates his own large empire, and this is writen about in the Q'uran.

                    As for your claim of Judaism lack of religious authority, I have to say that seems implausible given the importance of the Temple and the religious significance given to the kings of old, say for example on the birth of the idea of the Messiah.
                    If you don't like reality, change it! me
                    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • Getting back to the point at hand, an interesting POV as to why the Mumbai attacks were carried out:



                      What was the motive for the Mumbai attack?

                      At one level, to instill shock and awe worldwide, much like the 9/11 attacks. On the regional level, there may be another motive. Jihadis in Pakistan have been under pressure, especially under the new President (Asif Zardari), because of the ongoing military operations in Waziristan. The jihadis’ strategic objective was to break down the rapprochement between India and Pakistan. If that happens, Pakistan will be forced to pull back units operating against the Taliban and move them to the border with India. That would ease pressure on the Taliban.
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GePap
                        Which great Christian military victory is written about IN THE BIBLE? What Christian rulers did isn't relevant to a discussion of the articles of faith of the religion.
                        Way to squirm, GePap. This isn't what you first said. If we're talking about articles of faith, the Jewish conquests were one-off events, not general mandates (or is LOTM expected to kill any Amelekites he meets?). It's silly to assume those apply to their current ethos.

                        And if you're applying some sort of sola scriptura test for historical relevance... SS is a Protestant notion, and not even all of them subscribe to it. Catholics, Orthodox and many of the "high-church" proddies believe in supplementary traditions, IIUC. Do you really think that a millennium of Papal rule in the West and imperial sponsorship in the East have not had any impact on our consciousness, that nobody's mindset has changed since the third century?

                        As for the communty aspect - humans are communal beings - the question is, what daily rituals are Christians to perform as they live their daily lives an interact with other specific members of their community? Are there any injunctions about charity giving? Keeping the sabbath holy? The way community members must dress?
                        Read the book of Acts. It contains detailed descriptions of the communal life of early Christians ("IN THE BIBLE"). The office of the Diaconate was created specifically to address the need for community services. A fellow named Ananias (IIRC) held back from giving charitably and was struck dead (actually, it was for LYING about not giving, but close enough).

                        See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/tithe for injunctions about charity giving; there have been a number of Christian sects which believe/d in not working on the Sabbath, though my own church's interpretation distinguishes the Lord's Day from the Sabbath; rigid dress codes are a relative rarity, I concede, but that doesn't mean we're not communal.

                        As for other rituals of daily life, I'm currently in the middle of one of the four Great Fasts of the Year (Advent--the others being Lent, Dormition, and the Apostles Fast), which has a complex rubric about which foods are permissible on which days (wine and oil okay on day X but NOT day Y, shellfish don't count for this fast but not that). Both have been around for centuries. Also we have set morning and evening prayers, and a number of hourly offices which are supposed to be followed. The majority don't, but then few Jews keep totally kosher. There's also the principle of oikonomia, but that's a lot to get into for a brief answer. Briefly, local priests are allowed to give a certain amount of latitude on matters of obedience in response to changing circumstances.

                        There are a few Christian sects that have attempted such an approach, most famous are the Menonites, but they are seen as curio, an anomaly within the Christian sects.

                        So the question to you Elok is this: can a Christian be a good Christian if they never go to church and never show outward religious devotion. Why or why not?
                        I already answered this: not according to us or the RCC, or any of the minor sects like the Assyrians which still adhere to the ancient Christian way of life. Again, what you're describing is a Protestant mindset, and a modern Protestant one at that. Go back in time and ask John Calvin if those strict communes he established were really necessary, why don't you? I recommend wearing fire-retardant clothes if you do, though.

                        Honestly, you're living in a country of former colonies, a third of which were founded as explicitly religious communes based on scripture. Speaking historically and ecumenically--as opposed to reference to a very modern mindset popular in some circles--Christianity IS a communal faith.
                        1011 1100
                        Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                        • Please start another thread about this side track.

                          Those of us that rely on Poly as our primary news source want to know about the facts and rumors about the attacks.

                          POINT. The terrorists were asking people if they were Americans or British, NOT WHETHER THEY WERE JEWS.
                          It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                          RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                          • Actually... some of the articles I've seen mention that the attackers were looking for teh JOOS too.

                            Apparently now they think there were 15 gunmen and they've only accounted for 10?

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Arrian
                              Actually... some of the articles I've seen mention that the attackers were looking for teh JOOS too.
                              They attacked specifically Mumbai’s Chabad House.....
                              Blah

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                              • nm
                                Tutto nel mondo è burla

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