Can we defeat homosexuality?

[Asher]

Originally posted by TCO



Fugging love to spam.

And I think "They are" instead of "It is", would be correct pronoun refernce. Although, you might think of the rights collectively as a single concept.

"It is" refers to Christianity.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I'm sick of this bull****. Look at yourself before pointing fingers of hate and intolerance. You act as if Jerry Falwell is the end-all and be-all of all Christians from the beginning of time.

You're overreacting. I'm not claiming that the agents of intolerance are all that Christians have to offer. For instance, I have no real disagreement with Nikolai, with my own mother, and with a whole slew of self-professed Christians.

The point that I was making, however, is that I cannot in good conscience link myself to such groups because I have grave reservations of the entire nature of religion.

But it is far too convenient to ignore Jon Miller, I or any other Christians say who might disrupt your foul stereotype of Christians being all hateful, hypocritical *******s.

You're the one making assumptions here. I'm asking why I should believe in that same god?

Sure, there are actually good people who believe in a god. There are actually good people who base their lives around science. There are a lot of ****heads who do too.

I can justify why I'm willing to base my beliefs around science, even if there are terrible people who do the same; I cannot do that for religion, as no compelling argument has ever been made to me, and thus, I remain unconvinced.

And sure, we have our share, just like any other group in society. That shows the corruptability of human nature and, if anything, the need for Christianity. If you actually read the Bible (i.e. not just looking for passages you can skewer people with) you'll see that a good amount of what Jesus said was directed at precisely the kind of intolerant hypocrites you hate so much.

I have read the Bible. I still found it rife with contradictions and a product of its time. It's why I respect the Catholic teachings of it more, as they view it more as a symbolic text, rather than a literal one.

That doesn't mean it's convinced me of a particular need for Christianity or any religion for myself. It hasn't truly convinced me of its value to me.

So don't extend your prejudice to the rest of us.

Maybe you should try looking closer at what I've actually written, and what I'm actually saying?

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Traianvs


The bible doesn't refer to homosexuality as far as I know. It just has to be a big problem for a lot of fundamentalist Christians like yourself.

From the top of my head, Romans 1.

[TCO]

Q classic seems infected with the Berzerker cut and reply disease.

[Jon Miller]

I don't think any 'just a man' can determine morality properly. Because of this, many think that there doesn't exist any such thing. Just because there isn't clear answers doesn't mean that morality doesn't exist.

And so no, I am not saying that religion is required otherwise I would think raping a girl was right. I am saying that God can lend you insight into what is right in wrong when our own minds are incapable of seeing it. Just like I can go to my chess program and ask to see possibilities 10+ moves ahead where I can't see them.

It is due to human failings, not (necessarily) because religion defines morality.

Originally posted by Q Classic
If I do recognize I do wrong, why do I need a savior? Why shouldn't I merely seek forgiveness from those I've wronged, rather than from a figure whose existence is in doubt?

If you think that you don't need a savior, then maybe you should check out buddism?

I do not understand why I need an external, inhuman savior.

Part of the point is that it is a human savior.

I did. I found it unsatisfactory.

Then how do you have so much mistunderstanding about who God is, who Christ is, and what it means to be a Christian and to follow Him? Did you read and search in the scriptures? And pray?

This, then, suggests to me that the deity found in the holy books is not quite straight with those who worship it.

Read the Bible. Not just a single statement/verse or chapter, but the stories as a whole and compared to eachother. How in the world can what so many who call themselves Christians/etc be in agreement with what is in there?

Yes, there is evil in the Bible, the point of the Bible is to talk about man's relationship with God. And throughout it man has been an evil bastard.

JM

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I don't think any 'just a man' can determine morality properly. Because of this, many think that there doesn't exist any such thing. Just because there isn't clear answers doesn't mean that morality doesn't exist.

I think morality does exist, but I also do think that a human, bestowed with the power of reason, can determine appropriate morality.

If you think that you don't need a savior, then maybe you should check out buddism?

I've read some of the texts. They were interesting, but I found myself gravitating more towards the Daoist worldview.

Then again, the concept of "religion" and "philosophy" differs when you start talking about Eastern schools of thought, as it's perfectly normal to not view Buddhism as a religion, but more as a philosophy.

Part of the point is that it is a human savior.

Yes and no. God's son Jesus was born of a woman, was man, etc. I remember the entire Nicene Creed. I could not, however, maintain the doublethink that Jesus could both be man and god at the same time. To do so would render him superhuman, and therefore, inhuman.

Then how do you have so much mistunderstanding about who God is, who Christ is, and what it means to be a Christian and to follow Him? Did you read and search in the scriptures? And pray?

I did. I read the scriptures, I spoke with priests, with counselors, with catechists. I read some theologians. I prayed, and all went unanswered. I could not reconcile my modern worldview with that of the religion; assuming that I had been bestowed with the capacity for rationality for a reason, I ended up concluding that there was insufficient evidence in any higher power, and insufficient reason for me to continue going through the motions of organized religion.

Read the Bible. Not just a single statement/verse or chapter, but the stories as a whole and compared to eachother. How in the world can what so many who call themselves Christians/etc be in agreement with what is in there?

That's the rub. I don't think many are in complete agreement; I'm quite certain most are comfortably ignorant with many of the stories.

I'm always amused by those in the faith who think that I'm somehow unfamiliar with all of this, as if somehow I must have missed something when I came to the opposite conclusion as they did.

I've read the Bible, with stories. Somewhere in my mother's house is my copy of it, well-thumbed-through and highlighted. And yet, I find more wonder and amazement in the world of science and reason than I ever did with what feels to me as old mythology.

[TCO]

I think it's unfortnate that gays are still ostracized as taboo. They are human beings too. That said, I don't get the whole marriage thing.

[Jon Miller]

I feel that we are thread jacking Q^3. The reason why I said it seems as if you hadn't read the Bible as stories is because you said things like "inhuman savior" and the like.

The point of stories is that they teach you things, and that you gain insight from them. It is a completely different area of knowledge then science, as science doesn't understand such things as all.

I mean, your statement is similar to some of what I have heard people say, that fiction and stories and art and all that is hogwash because only science and reason are worthwhile. That is garbage! And religious or spiritual aspects of life compliment reason and science, similarly to how art and sport and freindships compliment reason and science. This whole idea of religion versus science is garbage, as they deal with and belong to totally different areas of application.

It is only 'old religion' which was used to explain the world. This is outdated, and is no longer applicable for the natural world. Some people argue that it is still needed for a first cause/morality and I agree with them, but that still doesn't make such things the point of religion as an inpersonal force would serve just as well.

I am amazed that you can talk about the ambiguity of some of the eastern ideas, and yet find the idea of Christ being God and Man to be so rediculous as to not be possible to consider? I agree it is a complicated concept, but that is some of it's power. Simple concepts, and gods that are just super powered humans, are fairly uninteresting outside of fantasy and mostly passed out of the way of religion 2000 years ago.

And I know (There are some in my church) that some Christians don't believe that Jesus was God. Did you ever look that way?

And finally, there is a lot of Christianity that favors unorganized religion or a lack of religion at all. In fact, there are many preachers who say that Christianity isn't or shouldn't be a religion. I don't agree with him in every way, but have you read Tolstoy? (Christian anarchist from ~1900)

peace,
JM
(The reason why I go with organized religion is because it is organized religion that can run hospitals, help out the poor, etc. A disorganized group of people wouldn't be able to do near as much, although also wouldn't be abel to do as much evil I agree.)

[onodera]

My thread has been occupied by Christians.

[Asher]

Originally posted by onodera
My thread has been occupied by Christians.

Indeed, is nothing sacred?

I propose an alliance between the Russians and teh Gays to drive out the Christian hordes.

[Japher]

Asher, the Pied Piper of Have'em

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by onodera
My thread has been occupied by Christians.

Yeah. It tend to go that way. It seems my defendence of gays turned around and hit me hard.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Nikolai


Yeah. It tend to go that way. It seems my defendence of gays turned around and hit me hard.

There's a coming war between Christianity and Gays thanks to Prop 8 and the Republicans.

Anecdotal evidence...in the Castro district in San Francisco, the police had to intervene as some Christians (who were always on the same corner for years) were reciting their usual **** about saving gays from hell and damnation, and these Christians were physically being forced out of the district for the first time...before people just ignored them. It's escalating...

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I feel that we are thread jacking Q^3.

It's more interesting than the tripe the OP posted.

The reason why I said it seems as if you hadn't read the Bible as stories is because you said things like "inhuman savior" and the like.

Because Jesus is "inhuman". The Holy Trinity, being a divine mystery, is supposed to bridge the gap between inhuman and human; however, the arguments that I've read trying to explain it have all been unconvincing, as they all equate Jesus, who was supposed to be utterly human, with the same Jesus who has superhuman powers of healing, raising the dead, resurrection, and the like, with the Holy Spirit, which grants things such as speaking in tongues, and isn't, strictly speaking, human, and a God, who, by definition, cannot be human.

Equating one to the other to the other means that they are one and the same; therefore, if one is inhuman, than the others must be inhuman; if one is human, so must the others. Thus, we quickly come to a contradiction, and there are no convincing arguments, for me, anyway, of resolving it.

The point of stories is that they teach you things, and that you gain insight from them. It is a completely different area of knowledge then science, as science doesn't understand such things as all.

Don't conflate art with religion. I have no issue with art, and it has its place. Art speaks to the human condition, in a way science cannot.

I mean, your statement is similar to some of what I have heard people say, that fiction and stories and art and all that is hogwash because only science and reason are worthwhile. That is garbage!

That is not what I am saying. I'm saying that I cannot adequately prove to myself that a god exists; I also cannot justify vast portions of the catechism using reason. Because I am unable to put blind faith that some higher power has chose certain aspects to be, I thus cannot in good conscience follow said religion.

You're gravely mistaken if you think that chain of logic proscribes me from supporting and enjoying Art.

And religious or spiritual aspects of life compliment reason and science, similarly to how art and sport and freindships compliment reason and science.

I have not found religion or spirituality to have complemented any aspect of my life as of this point.

This whole idea of religion versus science is garbage, as they deal with and belong to totally different areas of application.

I agree. However, I haven't been able to find any aspect of religion appealing on intellectual, spiritual, or any othe rlevel.

It is only 'old religion' which was used to explain the world. This is outdated, and is no longer applicable for the natural world. Some people argue that it is still needed for a first cause/morality and I agree with them, but that still doesn't make such things the point of religion as an inpersonal force would serve just as well.

We're in agreement here. And the impersonal forces make more logical sense to me.

I am amazed that you can talk about the ambiguity of some of the eastern ideas, and yet find the idea of Christ being God and Man to be so rediculous as to not be possible to consider? I agree it is a complicated concept, but that is some of it's power.

I don't find it too ridiculous to consider. I found the leaps of faith and logic I was required to make to believe in such things greater than my comfort level. Ambiguity, you see, is quite different from contradiction.

And I know (There are some in my church) that some Christians don't believe that Jesus was God. Did you ever look that way?

I do. But then we run into the problem of why I should favor something derived from am Abrahamic faith when I myself have no ancestry that connects to it? What makes it uniquely compelling over any number of other schools of thought?

I haven't found anything that makes Christianity uniquely interesting.

(The reason why I go with organized religion is because it is organized religion that can run hospitals, help out the poor, etc. A disorganized group of people wouldn't be able to do near as much, although also wouldn't be abel to do as much evil I agree.)

I have no problem with organized religion doing things like this. I don't mind donating to them, either; on the other hand, I don't find myself particularly drawn to practicing faith with them.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Asher

Indeed, is nothing sacred?

I propose an alliance between the Russians and teh Gays to drive out the Christian hordes.

Okay, we'll be the Bolsheviks, and your kind will be the Left SRs. Christians will be the counter-revolutionary forces.