Can we defeat homosexuality?

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun
Yeah, I was only raised a Catholic in all my childhood and most of my teen years, and now I belong to a gay community Christian church, Metropolitan Community Church, so what do I know about my own religion?

Gay Christians are so disturbing, I don't even know where to begin.

[MrFun]

The fact that I completely accept myself as a gay man and that I whole-heartedly take a stand for equal civil rights should be satisfactory enough for you, Asher.


I think you're only thinking of those gay Christians who are still ashamed of their sexuality and are boring conservatives who believe in hating themselves.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun
The fact that I completely accept myself as a gay man and that I whole-heartedly take a stand for equal civil rights should be satisfactory enough for you, Asher.


I think you're only thinking of those gay Christians who are still ashamed of their sexuality and are boring conservatives who believe in hating themselves.

No, Christianity is very clear on its stance on homosexuality. Anyone who is both Christian and Gay is either naive, delusional, or simply crazy.

Note that these are traits common with Christians to begin with.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Asher
Anyone who is both Christian and Gay is either naive, delusional, or simply crazy.

fixed

[Asher]

Originally posted by Comrade Snuggles


fixed

I'd already covered this troll in my post.

[chequita guevara]

That's what I get for not reading further.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by MrFun
Which passage are you referring to in New Testament, JM regarding homosexuality? I'm betting it can be interpreted in different ways. And how many of us follow all the rules in the New Testament literally? Do homophobes or self-righteous people just pick and choose passages that are convenient for them and ignore the other passages?

Just a short one in a letter from Paul.

The Bible spends very little time on homosexual activity and a lot of time on love, mercy, kindness to others, charity, and things of this nature. I am not going to be telling you or anyone what God wants them to do, God will direct you if you follow Him.

And the point of Christianity is that we are sinners, we can't follow everything, and we need God's grace and forgiveness.

They definitely pick and choose, as they set up homosexual activity as some great evil, but ignore all the rest of the Bible which condemns them even more.

JM

[Q Classic]

If we were made in god's image, and yet fail to follow in god's footsteps repeatedly, god was a bad creator/progenitor/father.

If we were given free will, the omniscient aspect becomes untenable.

If god created people to be gay, and then made that to be sinful, god is an emotional sadist.

I do not want the pity or forgiveness of some inhuman being.

[Jon Miller]

BTW, I am glad that you are a Christian Mr. Fun and think it quite reasonable that God won't ever convict you to change your sexuality.

And it isn't any of my business anyways.

edit: Also, I recognize that Christianity has failed homosexuals in the last 100 years and I feel terrible about it and understand that many homosexuals will be rightfully angry about it.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Q Classic
If god created people to be gay, and then made that to be sinful, god is an emotional sadist.

We are all born under the effects of sin, whether you are gay or not. I am sure there are gay people who sin a lot less than I.

A key point of being in God's image is that we have free will. That includes free will to sin, and from the myth of Adam we understand that we are even predisposed to sin. And it is obvious from just looking at the world (see some threads on this forum) that we are a sinful race.

The omniscience/free will problem is an old one. Reading science fiction (with time travel/etc) I don't see how it has to be a problem, but omniscience can also mean knowing all possible outcomes (and knowing how those outcomes could come about).

And it isn't just forgiveness, it is transformation. If not completely now, then in the future. At some point all who follow Christ will be free from sin and it's effects.

peace,
JM

[Q Classic]

If we are modelled after a god's image, and granted free will, what makes god's proclamations of what is sin and not sin valid?

Why should I grant that god any power over me to determine what is and isn't moral, particularly when that god's followers have been shining beacons of heinous immorality, and wondrous paragons of hate, intolerance, and evil throughout the ages? Why should I grant that god any power when it has thus far failed to prove that it has any effect with regards to my existence?

For something that's supposed to be a paternalistic deity, it's awfully like a deadbeat dad.

And I have zero interest in currying favor with such a disinterested inhuman being, if one were to exist.

[Jon Miller]

As I said, the reason to be a Christian is because you recognize you are a sinner (in the western view). If you don't recognize you do wrong, then you don't need a savior.

Now, God is a bit of a different issue. You can worship Him because He is God. You can worship Him because He is good. You can worship Him because He blesses you. But as far as this goes, there is no difference between Jew or Christian (or even Muslim?).

It's not God's proclamations, it is reality. The issue is that we are sinful, and can't recongize it or see through to what the results are of our choices. So we can't always see that something we do is bad. Now, almost all of us can see that raping a little girl is bad, whether we are Christian or Buddist or Atheist. But just because it is an easy question and other questions are hard questions doesn't mean that the hard questions don't have answers.

God's followers have done a lot of good as well as evil. But I agree, people have been terrible over all of recorded history. And I am one of them, and that is why I need a savior.

And I do see that those who eagerly seek God do get transformed and become better people. The problem is that there are many Christians who aren't Christian. And this has been true for the last two thousand years. Any time when there isn't some mark from God to show people, and they can just claim some name for themselves, the name no longer means that the person is a follower of God.

If you want to see if following Christ is worth while, then I encourage you to do so for a while. Don't look at all those who claim His name but don't follow Him as signs that following Him doens't get you anywhere. They were never following Him in most cases. But I won't pretend to be sure in my identifying of them, but I will point out that 'by their fruits you will know them'. If they don't have the fruit of a follower of God, than they aren't following God.

And just because someone says that they are a hero and a good guy, and then goes about murdering and raping, doesn't mean that being a hero or a good guy is evil or terrible. It just means that the person is a liar.

peace,
JM

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Q Classic
If we are modelled after a god's image, and granted free will, what makes god's proclamations of what is sin and not sin valid?

Why should I grant that god any power over me to determine what is and isn't moral, particularly when that god's followers have been shining beacons of heinous immorality, and wondrous paragons of hate, intolerance, and evil throughout the ages? Why should I grant that god any power when it has thus far failed to prove that it has any effect with regards to my existence?

For something that's supposed to be a paternalistic deity, it's awfully like a deadbeat dad.

And I have zero interest in currying favor with such a disinterested inhuman being, if one were to exist.

I'm sick of this bull****. Look at yourself before pointing fingers of hate and intolerance. You act as if Jerry Falwell is the end-all and be-all of all Christians from the beginning of time. Judging a huge class of people based on the negative actions of some is pretty much what intolerance is.

So no, Asher, there is nothing remotely contradictory about Mr. Fun being Christian and gay. You may have noticed the many gay pastors and ministers throughout various denominations. My GF's pastor is an openly gay man.

But it is far too convenient to ignore Jon Miller, I or any other Christians say who might disrupt your foul stereotype of Christians being all hateful, hypocritical *******s. And sure, we have our share, just like any other group in society. That shows the corruptability of human nature and, if anything, the need for Christianity. If you actually read the Bible (i.e. not just looking for passages you can skewer people with) you'll see that a good amount of what Jesus said was directed at precisely the kind of intolerant hypocrites you hate so much.

So don't extend your prejudice to the rest of us.

[MrFun]

Asher and Comrade do not realize that their atheistic bigotry of Christians is just as bad as religious-right wing bigotry of atheists.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun
Asher and Comrade do not realize that their atheistic bigotry of Christians is just as bad as religious-right wing bigotry of atheists.

It's not bigotry. You choose to believe in values which degrade and demonize yourself. Whether your faction chooses to ignore that or "interpret it differently" is just putting lipstick on a Palin. It's still a Palin. By definition, it's stupid.

Christianity is perhaps the most damaging sociological force in the history of mankind. I like how most Christians mock Scientologists for their ridiculous beliefs, when Christianity is no different.

It's a scam, it's a shame, and for a gay person to identify with a faith that is counter to the values of one's self-interest is ridiculous.

So, you can call this bigotry if you want. I'm not up for taking away Christian rights as most Christians are in favour of taking away gay rights, so spare me your Draaamaaaa. Fundamentally, anyone who believes Christianity is reasonable and plausible has some screws loose.