Nationwide protest against Proposition 8 tomorrow.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Happiness and living up to "core U.S. values" is all you've got?

Those happen to be very, very great social utility. If happiness isn't integral to social utility, then I don't want you to be deciding what is best for society.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Comrade Snuggles


Only the Mormons practice traditional marriage. Most people nontraditional limit it to one man and one woman.

On the planet Zork?

[Naked Gents Rut]

How do you measure "happiness", Imran? I don't want people like you determining goals for society on the basis of abstract bull****.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think in certain areas happiness is fairly easy to measure... such as would allowing gays the same rights as everyone else increase their happiness. I think that's pretty obvious.

Happiness is one of the great goals of our 'great experiment', as the Declaration of Independence makes clear. We should strive to increase it as best we can.

on the basis of abstract bull****

You mean like "liberty", "security"? Our society, Hell every society, is built on the basis of "abstract bull****".

[Naked Gents Rut]

Every society is not built on abstract bull****; America is actually pretty unique in that regard. Christ dude, open a book every once and a while.

I think in certain areas happiness is fairly easy to measure... such as would allowing gays the same rights as everyone else increase their happiness.

There's no measurement involved in that assumption. Plus, you're not even considering the decreased happiness of people opposed to gay marriage (which also can't be measured). There's no way of knowing whether gay marriage would actually increase or decrease net happiness, which is why it's a stupid variable to base your argument on.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut
Every society is not built on abstract bull****; America is actually pretty unique in that regard. Christ dude, open a book every once and a while.

Name one that's not.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Every society is not built on abstract bull****

Name one that isn't. Every society has some abstract BS that underpins it, whether it is Britain with the monarchy's (supposed) looking after the best interests of the people (whatever "best interests" means) or Sweden's overarching belief in equality.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Name one that isn't.

Japan, China, Germany. Many European countries, in fact. Pretty much any society that developed without much ideological influence from the American or French revolutions.

[Aeson]

Nationalism itself is an abstract concept. ("Bull****" is subjective so isn't going to lend itself to refutation or confirmation without further definition.)

[Naked Gents Rut]

Who said anything about nationalism? That's an outgrowth of the French Revolution...

[Aeson]

Japan, China, and Germany are nations. They can't be bereft of "abstract", their very status as nations is derived from the abstract of nationalism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Besides, with China at least, the abstract notion of the "Middle Kingdom" had and still does influence its sense of identity and place in the world.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


Japan, China, Germany. Many European countries, in fact. Pretty much any society that developed without much ideological influence from the American or French revolutions.

The only one of those not heavily influenced by western individualism is China. China is based on it's own abstract bull****; tradition, loyalty, humanity etc...

[Naked Gents Rut]

You think the Japanese are individualistic?

Besides, with China at least, the abstract notion of the "Middle Kingdom" had and still does influence its sense of identity and place in the world.

Seriously dude, read a book about the subject and get back to me. The Chinese give me a hard-on with their coldly logical pursuit of power and their rejection of the abstract bull**** America tries to push on them.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


You think the Japanese are individualistic?

They have individual rights.