zeitgeist

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
They aren't technically lying.

Yes they are. Fraud doesn't require a misrepresentation in the literal sense (of course "technically" it's "organic material"!); fraud takes into account the familiar public meaning of words and perceptions derived therefrom. Not only does organic food have a very specific meaning to the average consumer, it could be firmly backed up by states' statutory definitions and federal regulatory definitions, so any lawyer worth his salt would totally have you over a barrel. This doesn't have **** to do with "inspectors," it has to do with civil liability which could be established through the discovery process without ever involving regulatory agencies.

The problem isn't enforceability; apparently the real problem is mere lack of complainants, which doesn't last forever. As has been mentioned on this thread, there is a noticeable difference in flavor between chemical-laden food and true organic, so eventually some consumer might raise an eyebrow.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes they are. Fraud doesn't require a misrepresentation in the literal sense (of course "technically" it's "organic material"!); fraud takes into account the familiar public meaning of words and perceptions derived therefrom. Not only does organic food have a very specific meaning to the average consumer, it could be firmly backed up by states' statutory definitions and federal regulatory definitions, so any lawyer worth his salt would totally have you over a barrel. This doesn't have **** to do with "inspectors," it has to do with civil liability which could be established through the discovery process without ever involving regulatory agencies.

Then he need to go after the fact that the folks who are labeling the product as "organic" without the distinction, not us. If he were to go after us he'd have to show that we were misleading customers by failing to make the distinction, when asked, between "organic" and the USDA "organic". Most of the time the customers ask for the product information and don't care whether the product is organic or not so long as it is on the label. If they do ask, we tell them the same thing. Read the label.

The problem isn't enforceability; apparently the real problem is mere lack of complainants, which doesn't last forever. As has been mentioned on this thread, there is a noticeable difference in flavor between chemical-laden food and true organic, so eventually some consumer might raise an eyebrow.

Actually, there isn't, so it's doubtful that anyone will ever notice. Of course there is also the 'selection bias' which anyone who does advertising is familiar with. If you think it will taste better then chances are it will. Taste is in your head.

[Darius871]

dp

[DanS]

I buy at Whole Foods when I go grocery shopping. It is the local supermarket. You have to watch out because much of the organic stuff has a lot of sugars and simple carbs in it -- it is only slightly less processed than the food you might buy at Giant or Kroger's. "Evaporated cane juice" makes me chuckle. Whole Foods also sells more complex foods, like whole wheat bread. Maybe these days Giant and Kroger's do as well.

Point being, that you can't check your brain at the door when you walk into Whole Foods and that Giant and Kroger's might have good stuff too for the discerning shopper.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Then he need to go after the fact that the folks who are labeling the product as "organic" without the distinction, not us. If he were to go after us he'd have to show that we were misleading customers by failing to make the distinction, when asked, between "organic" and the USDA "organic". Most of the time the customers ask for the product information and don't care whether the product is organic or not so long as it is on the label. If they do ask, we tell them the same thing. Read the label.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The court will presume that you knew the distinction simply by virtue of the fact that you're a grocery store in the best position possible to be aware of the distinction.

FFS, if you buy a truck from my professional dealership based on my representation that it's "supercharged," but it in fact doesn't use a supercharger's forced induction of fuel to increase the engine's power, and you sue over it, do you seriously believe I can come into court and say what I really meant was that I'd charged the batteries a little extra the night before, and I'm not responsible for the customer's reasonable distinction? Tell me you're joking.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Actually, there isn't, so it's doubtful that anyone will ever notice. Of course there is also the 'selection bias' which anyone who does advertising is familiar with. If you think it will taste better then chances are it will. Taste is in your head.

Taste doesn't have to be evidence in court; it just takes a difference in taste for someone to wonder whether the labeling is legit and either speak to a private attorney or simply file a written complaint with the state agricultural agency or Attorney General's office. With a public complaint the normal inspectors would show up, or even in a private suit the court in the discovery phase would order a private inspection to verify indisputably whether certain chemicals are present in the "organic" food.

It doesn't matter if taste is subjective; if a customer subjectively "thinks" it's BS, and gets scientific tests made which objectively prove it's BS, the result is the same even if you believe there really is no difference (a point on which I'm sure several here would disagree anyway).

Seriously, can a small operation like yours even afford fines in the thousands, to say nothing of compensatory & punitive damages that additional state/local laws will allow?

(g) Any operation that:

(1) Knowingly sells or labels a product as organic, except in accordance with the Act, shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $10,000 per violation.

7 C.F.R. § 205.662

[Agathon]

Even race is not as inflammatory subject as organic vegetables.

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[Darius871]

Are you still in Texas Ben?

§ 18.008. Penalty


(a) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly:


(1) violates this subchapter; or


(2) fails to comply with a notice, order, or rule of the department under this subchapter.


(b) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

§ 18.009. Civil Penalty; Injunction


(a) A person who violates this subchapter or a rule adopted under this subchapter is liable to the state for a civil penalty not to exceed $10,000 for each violation. Each day a violation continues is a separate violation for purposes of a civil penalty assessment.

(b) On request of the department, the attorney general or the county attorney or district attorney of the county in which the violation is alleged to have occurred shall file suit to collect the penalty.

(c) A civil penalty collected under this section shall be deposited in the general revenue fund. All civil penalties recovered in suits instituted by a county or district attorney under this section shall be divided between the state and the county in which the county or district attorney brought suit, with 50 percent of the recovery to be paid to the general revenue fund and 50 percent to the county.

(d) The department is entitled to appropriate injunctive relief to prevent or abate a violation of this subchapter or a rule adopted under this subchapter. On request of the department, the attorney general or the county or district attorney of the county in which the alleged violation is threatened or occurring shall file suit for the injunctive relief. Venue is in the county in which the alleged violation is threatened or is occurring.

(e) This section is applicable only if the department chooses to use civil remedy as opposed to criminal penalty under Section 18.008.

TX AGRIC § 18

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles


And, while buying organic is nice, one should also try to buy locally. What's the point in not using pesticides if you're belching out tons of carbon shipping it from California to Michigan?

Finally, an intelligent comment. Having a sustainable food system entails more than simply not using pesticides. Organic food is a good thing, but the logistics are equally important. Large corporations can mass produce at cheaper prices, have more leverage, can lobby with the government and so on, but the enormous waste of energy due to transport is detrimental. That is why locally grown organic food is a good alternative. And really make no mistake, our food system is truly messed up. We've become so addicted to luxury, consumerism etc. that the sky is the limit. If something is possible now, it'll be possible forever. That's the spirit, sorta.

The odd thing is that a study carried out by Public Knowledge for the W.K. Kellogg Foundation points out that Americans do believe local produce is healthier, but paradoxically they hardly ever buy local. Also they don't understand how agriculture can destroy the environment. Another thing is that American media often link food to health related issues (i.e. obesity lately), but that's not really the most important aspect of organic food. The fact that people often avoid 'unhealthy products' because of a food scare in the media is a prime example. People don't change their thoughts about the food system, they merely avoid 'contaminated' products. This is caused by the consumerism model, a cognitive predisposition by which people consider food mainly through their personal experiences with it (eating, cooking, buying etc).


PS:Ben Kenobi describes how he and his employer deceive the customers which is a sad thing. I thought with his Christian background the last thing he'd be was a fraud. But it turns out he's as hypocritical as his religion. So be it.

[tinyp3nis]

Is there an address for the website? 48 inch threads

[Theben]

Originally posted by Kidicious
BK,

I don't think you know what organic means. The suprising thing is that you aren't the first person to post in this thread who doesn't know what it means.

[Ben Kenobi]

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The court will presume that you knew the distinction simply by virtue of the fact that you're a grocery store in the best position possible to be aware of the distinction.

As I said, when asked we make that distinction clear. DanS is quite right. Don't check your brain out at the door just because it's a health food store. Many of the products we sell are arguably processed about the same as the cheap stuff you get at the grocery store.

FFS, if you buy a truck from my professional dealership based on my representation that it's "supercharged," but it in fact doesn't use a supercharger's forced induction of fuel to increase the engine's power, and you sue over it, do you seriously believe I can come into court and say what I really meant was that I'd charged the batteries a little extra the night before, and I'm not responsible for the customer's reasonable distinction? Tell me you're joking.

If I lied to the customer and said there was no distinction between "Organic" and "USDA Organic" I'd lose my job and rightfully so. If I sold something with Organic on it I am not required, unless the customer asks, as to what the distinction is between the two.

To be honest, not a single customer has asked this question in all the time I've been here. Not one.

Taste doesn't have to be evidence in court; it just takes a difference in taste for someone to wonder whether the labeling is legit and either speak to a private attorney or simply file a written complaint with the state agricultural agency or Attorney General's office.

As I said, whether something tastes "good" is in your head, not your tongue. It's like smelling "nice". It's all in your head and different people will see different things. Organic has nothing to do with it. People believe that Organic will taste better, and so it does.

Seriously, can a small operation like yours even afford fines in the thousands, to say nothing of compensatory & punitive damages that additional state/local laws will allow?

We aren't in the states. Up here the regulations are pretty lax with respect to health food stores, and laxer then the grocery stores.

[Ben Kenobi]

[qutoe]
PS:Ben Kenobi describes how he and his employer deceive the customers which is a sad thing. I thought with his Christian background the last thing he'd be was a fraud. But it turns out he's as hypocritical as his religion. So be it.
[/quote]

Which is why I'm posting about it here?

"None who is blind as those who will not see."

Just take DanS's advice and don't check your brain at the door because it is a health food store.

[tinyp3nis]

You forgot the website address