What's heaven like?

[Jon Miller]

You are free to sin in heaven. It is just that once you are no longer enslaved to sin, you wouldn't choose to.

JM

[Jon Miller]

God isn't going to go through our deeds so that others can jeer and be upset at us. I am not so sure that He will go through our deeds before others in any way. He will know what we have done though, in our lives. And He will know if we are followers of Him (whether we knew of Christ, or followed Him without knowing Christ (probably harder, but I am not so sure always)).

JM

[Kidlicious]

What do you mean "enslaved?" So we are born enslaved because we do whatever we want to?

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't think you understand that being free means that you might do things and have ideas that are bad or wrong.

Ideas sure, but as for doing sinful things, the point is we wouldn't have any desire to do so. We would be free, but it would be pointless.

No, I mean being free to sin in heaven. That is, to be free at all to do whatever you want.

Ahh ok. Sure, we'd be free to do so, but why would you want to?

I mean it gets pretty pointless.

So we don't have to answer his calls, or invite him to our birthday parties?

Nope. He won't be there at all. You'll get exactly what you wanted. You'll be free to do whatever you want, but so will everyone else.

[Jon Miller]

Ben's TV idea is both silly and horrible. If we were free from all our sins, and their consequences, and no longer experienced sorrow, why would we want to watch this earth (other than to feel things other than to feel sorrow due to what happens to people on earth)?

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

we haven't. It's not egalitarian at all. When God announces in his booming voice, "Bradley Pitt, thou art guilty of desiring fornication with Mary Jones, a woman you randomly passed on the street on June 13th 1998", I'm betting that Mary Jones will call that one a result. On the other hand, she's almost certain to take a dim view of any Poly geek doing the same thing, so this whole scheme discriminates against nerds.

My list would be rather long on that score.

And it's important that we haven't done the same things. I'm not being put in the same pen as the bestiality people (a.k.a the Australians), thank you very much.

I thought it was the Kiwis who were the real fruits.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben's TV idea is both silly and horrible. If we were free from all our sins, and their consequences, and no longer experienced sorrow, why would we want to watch this earth (other than to feel things other than to feel sorrow due to what happens to people on earth)?

Why on earth is sorrow sinful?

If I passed away and was in heaven, I'd care about the people I love that I left behind. I want to see them here with me in heaven, and I'd miss them.

That's why I would watch. I'd want to see how they were doing.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious
What do you mean "enslaved?" So we are born enslaved because we do whatever we want to?

No, we are born prediposed towards sin. We aren't ever free to do what we want, we want to sin. As easy to see, physical examples...

Consider that many people are born with a weakness to certain drugs, or to alcohol.

People would argue with these, but there is definitely evidence in favor of it. It seems like people are born with difficulties saying no to sex (even when it hurts them or those they love). Or those who are born with anger problems. And probably some pedaophiles and even rapists are born with those predisposition.

Just because you were born a way, doesn't mean what you do is right.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Thanks Jon.

Well said.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Why on earth is sorrow sinful?

If I passed away and was in heaven, I'd care about the people I love that I left behind. I want to see them here with me in heaven, and I'd miss them.

That's why I would watch. I'd want to see how they were doing.

Well, I don't think that you are alive after you die. And there are only a couple of verses that agree with your view, and many many that agree with my view. But that is a different argument.

The Bible says that there won't be sorrow in heaven. But it says that even God sorrows about what is seen on the earth. I think that this means that the heaven that followers of God will be at, isn't a place with God right now.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Ideas sure, but as for doing sinful things, the point is we wouldn't have any desire to do so. We would be free, but it would be pointless.

So God controls our desires too?

Ahh ok. Sure, we'd be free to do so, but why would you want to?

You can't know why you will change you mind in the future. If you could you would change you mind immediately.

[FrostyBoy]

Ben has a condition that I call BSSOS, which is short for "Being stuck in a square outside the square."

In order to think about the supernatural, you must exit the natural world and think outside the square (the natural square), this is a unique human trait that we have developed. Basically, one would think outside the square in order to understand something greater than what he/she already knows, but this person must bring that theory back to the nature square - if he/she succeeds, it's called evidence.

Unfortunately, some people, such as religious people, get stuck outside the square - unable to bring their theory back to the real world, after a while, this is where they live, this is the BSSOS (also known as "Bull****! - Save Our Souls!") that I was talking about.

So Ben here, is a good example of someone who is unable to comprehend what we are saying in the natural world, because his world is unable to connect with it. Thus, why it is so difficult for religious people to have a debate based on evidence, logic or even just debate well at all.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, I don't think that you are alive after you die. And there are only a couple of verses that agree with your view, and many many that agree with my view. But that is a different argument.

I see what you are saying. You are thinking of after the Last Judgement, when I am thinking of the time before then.

Yes, after earth fades away and after the Last Judgement, there will not be any sorrow.

I think that this means that the heaven that followers of God will be at, isn't a place with God right now.

Or that time with God hasn't came. I believe those who are dead now are in heaven with him, because scripture talks about Moses and Elijah being with God in heaven, even though they are dead. If they are alive then so are others, and those people would be able to see us and they would indeed feel sorrow for those who still suffer here on earth.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
No, we are born prediposed towards sin. We aren't ever free to do what we want, we want to sin.

I suggest that you read this over and over again and think hard about it until you are confused by it.

[Jon Miller]

To repeat, although I know most/all of you have heard it before.

We don't get saved by doing right. We can't do what is right, we are too screwed up (from living on this world/this universe/being human). We are saved by accepting God's grace, which we all can do.

So the judgement, if it was performed as you were imagining it, would go like this:

Jon, you hated this person, you wanted to have sex with that girl, you were cruel to that person, you fantasized about having sex with that person, you gave money to that charity, you fantasized about killing this person, ...; You deserve death.

But none of that matters, you are forgiven.

Actually, in the book situation, He wouldn't even read out any of the bad stuff. He would just say "you are forgiven, enter into My rest".

JM
(Note that I am an anhilliationist, I don't beleive in people burning in hell forever either.)