The Amethyst Initiative

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Thoth



So improve your public transportation system.

That would be just great, however raising the driving age to 21 would still be ridiculous. It's bad enough that the drinking age has been 18 this whole time. I say if you can't do it when you turn 18 you shouldn't be able to do it period.

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Kidicious


That would be just great, however raising the driving age to 21 would still be ridiculous. It's bad enough that the drinking age has been 18 this whole time. I say if you can't do it when you turn 18 you shouldn't be able to do it period.

?? I thought that the Raygun forced the states to raise the drinking age to 21 back in the '80s??

Cars are a lot more dangerous than alcohol and require a lot more maturity to handle safely.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Thoth
Cars are a lot more dangerous than alcohol and require a lot more maturity to handle safely.

Yes, they are dangerous, so why does anyone get to drive?

[Swissy]

The problem is that it is rather easy to get a license to drive, and incredibly difficult to lose once you get one, especially for drunk driving. Many lawyers have practices limited to retaining the privilage to drive for those who desrve to lose it. They are well paid and very good at what they do, unforunately for their clients' next victims.

[Ben Kenobi]

Couple points here.

I agree with rah. A law that isn't enforced affects all the rest of the laws. If it's wrong to drink at 21 and no one enforces it, then why is it wrong to drive drunk. It's important that if a law is there that it ought to be enforced.

I disagree about the whole formative brains theory. Pushing back effective adulthood does nothing to help these kids learn the skills to drink in a responsible manner.

If we consider an adult to be 18, then they should be permitted to drink and permitted to do anything an adult would be permitted.

I'd even support lowering it to 16, to match up with the legal driving age. If we can trust someone with a vehicle then we should also be able to insist that they drink responsibly.

That being said, we shouldn't have lesser penalties for a 16 year old that is irresponsible enough to drink and drive. They should face the same penalties that someone in their 20's will recieve for the same crime.

[Ben Kenobi]

So improve your public transportation system

And those of us who live in rural areas?

Busses are not the answer.

[SlowwHand]

If you can serve your country, you should be able to purchase alcohol. Otherwise is obscene.

[Ben Kenobi]

Neither my girlfriend nor I drink (at all, ever), nor have either of us (at all, ever) except for church as a child/young adult.

The same situation for myself.

I generally agree with Elok, that raising children to entirely abstain from alcohol probably will cause them - or at least an appreciable fraction - to become worse drunks than if they have some exposure to it.

It's all about responsible drinking. All things in moderation. Teach your child their limits, and how much they can drink. I didn't drink at all until I was 19, and I didn't go binge afterwards. I drank, realised it wasn't a big deal and then went completely dry again for several years. Now I might drink on special occasions.

I do not necessarily expect my children to do so, however, and probably won't even teach them that they should - I will tell them why I do, and why my GF does (or, rather, she will tell them), but I suspect that they won't make the same choice (as they didn't have the experiences that caused both of us, separately, to make that choice).

If you honestly feel you are better off not drinking, then it is very important to teach your kids when they are underage that they should not drink at all, and that if they want to drink, they can do so when they are older. Make that very clear that the restriction is temporary.

What I would do is take my kid out to a party on his 18th birthday and offer him wine if he wishes. If he lives on his own, I would offer him beer along with other stuff when he comes to visit. This is a chance for him to have some experience with the taste of alcohol, under your supervision.

You need to make it clear after 18, that responsible drinking is no different from anything else, that while he has the privilege to drink alcohol, it also comes with the responsibility not to hurt anyone else while doing so, and not to drink to excess.

This is how I would suggest you handle things. Let them drink at first under your supervision, until they get the point that alcohol isn't that great of a thrill.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I disagree about the whole formative brains theory. Pushing back effective adulthood does nothing to help these kids learn the skills to drink in a responsible manner.

This is a biology thing, not a psychological theory. The most neural growth (when you are increasing neural connections) occurs at two times in life, shortly after you are born (~3) and again after you hit puberty.

When you are born, you have the same number of neural connections as an adult. By the time you are three, the number of connections in certain regions will have tripled. The brain also removes some after this growth time (ones that aren't very useful perhaps?) and by the time you are 8, you have the same number as you will as an adult.

However, this process goes on all over again once you hit puberty. For different regions of the brain. This settles down again at about 20.

I am not just making this up, I got it from a book "Brain Rules" which is a layman's book, but is by a real neuro-scientist. He gives some references, but not to this (it isn't a science book though).

And sorry, Ozzy, but this has made me change my mind on other things as well. I remember being quite rational at 14 or 16 (more so than many adults), but apparently there are biological things so that those years are some of the ones that we are the most 'not done'.

JM

[Jon Miller]

This also coincides with my view that the people with drug problems normally start in their early teens.

Guys I know who try stuff/etc in their 20s, don't seem as likely to have problems.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

This is a biology thing, not a psychological theory. The most neural growth (when you are increasing neural connections) occurs at two times in life, shortly after you are born (~3) and again after you hit puberty.

I'm sorry I don't buy it and it isn't a good justification for banning alcohol. It's a convenient excuse to ban things from perfectly capable young adults because their brain is growing.

Newsflash, your brain is always growing.

I remember being quite rational at 14 or 16 (more so than many adults), but apparently there are biological things so that those years are some of the ones that we are the most 'not done'.

I don't see why 14-16 is any more significant then say 8-10 for that matter.

I would argue that it's a good case to push abstinence until adulthood, but beyond that it's not a very good justification to extend the period.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I'm sorry I don't buy it and it isn't a good justification for banning alcohol. It's a convenient excuse to ban things from perfectly capable young adults because their brain is growing.

Newsflash, your brain is always growing.

Not at the same rate. Most the time, your brain isn't growing rapidly. It occasionally makes a new connection, and occasionally prunes one. At two times in your life, though, this is wrong. These are your rainy seasons or whatever.. your brain springs to life making all sorts of connections, and removing lots of other ones.

The book doesn't tie itself into the question of how we treat teenagers at all. It was just noting that people are generally wrong when they think that the brain does most of it's development when people are <10. It has just as significant development from 10-20. It is just that after the 20s, that it never changes fast again.

I don't see why 14-16 is any more significant then say 8-10 for that matter.

I would argue that it's a good case to push abstinence until adulthood, but beyond that it's not a very good justification to extend the period.

Because biologically the brain of a 8 yearold isn't changing much (still some, yeah). However, the brain of a 14-16 year old is changing a whole lot. Biologically, for the brain, these are the most important times.

And it is the brain that determines a lot of who you are.

JM

[Theben]

Personally I've felt the lack of a 'rite of adulthood' in our culture has something to do with this. I would prefer that everything that requires some sort of license or self-control... pilot, driving, drinking, owning a gun, etc. should be lowered to 16 but allowed only in the presence of a responsible adult (21+ or 25+). After the age of 18 you'd take some sort of test (the rite of passage, more or less) and if you pass you're considered an adult for these things. If not either keep trying or wait until 21.

Better than now where a man's rite is how much crappy beer he can drink and how many women he can lay.

[Ben Kenobi]

Here here!

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I

Newsflash, your brain is always growing.

Do you have a sister? An aunt?