The Amethyst Initiative

[Asher]

Originally posted by Arrian
We have some technology now that could help with the DD thing.

I see no reason to kill DinoDoc...

[Dauphin]

However in many parts of Europe this binge drinking culture does not exist. It quite possibly has to do with the fact that children are given watered down wine with meals, and alcohol is treated as an every day/nothing special kind of thing.

Alcohol is nothing special in the UK either. I think the problem is not so much with experience, but with objective.

Binge drinkers don't get drunk because they don't know what they are doing. They drink a lot because they think that a drink or two doesn't just doesn't give you enough of a buzz - you need several to make it worthwhile. Additionally, having a stonking hangover (often whilst claiming that you aren't affected by the booze) is often worn as a badge of honour for some strange reason.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Elok is probably at least in part correct. However, I think it's also something uniquely American - our self-indulgent culture (which is presumably an offshoot of the 'hippie' movement). But who knows...

It has a hell of a lot less to do with hippies almost everything to do with consumerism. We are taught as soon as we're old enough to watch t that we should indulge every whim and spend all our money, even more than we have.

[Kirnwaffen]

I definitely see the argument for lowering the drinking age, but I question whether or not it will, by itself, make any contribution to the fight against binge drinking.

It seems to me that our problem with Alcohol is fundamentally a cultural one. Generally speaking, teenagers see to put alcohol and getting drunk on a huge pedestal. I don't quite understand the drivers behind this phenomenon. Maybe it's a "forbidden fruit" thing, maybe it's a curiosity thing, or maybe it's a "cool" thing. It's probably a combination of those and maybe other factors.

The question that haunts me is this: By lowering the drinking age, are we simply moving the binge drinking problem down an age bracket? I think that's a huge concern, in part because you're going to radically alter the social landscapes of high schools by introducing legal alcohol purchasers. And you're introducing them into a far more peer-pressure susceptible group.

I'm not saying that the proposal is all bad. Indeed, my experiences in the military tell me that you can radically increase the chances of serious incidents by enforcing total prohibition. More than anything, though, they showed me just how important it is to have somebody looking out for a young drinker. And who's going to be watching out for these teenagers? I'm not saying that 21 year olds are any better, but some of the problems we have now stem from this lack of supervision, and they're only going to increase with more people drinking more often.

I think there are two areas where we can really make strides with this problem. One starts at home, with parents educating their children about the effects of alcohol, and maybe even nurturing some controlled experience with it. The other is on the law enforcement end, and basically consists of hard core punishments for first time offenders where drunk driving is concerned.

Anyhow, just my rambling...

[Berzerker]

they're old enough to die for their country, they're old enough to drink

[Kirnwaffen]

The problem is that too many of them die because they drink and then go do something utterly retarded.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by snoopy369
It actually brings to mind an interesting question for myself.

Neither my girlfriend nor I drink (at all, ever), nor have either of us (at all, ever) except for church as a child/young adult.

I generally agree with Elok, that raising children to entirely abstain from alcohol probably will cause them - or at least an appreciable fraction - to become worse drunks than if they have some exposure to it.

However, both my GF and I abstain entirely (and likely will forever, or at least for a long time), due to various reasons. I do not necessarily expect my children to do so, however, and probably won't even teach them that they should - I will tell them why I do, and why my GF does (or, rather, she will tell them), but I suspect that they won't make the same choice (as they didn't have the experiences that caused both of us, separately, to make that choice).

Fortunately it will be 15-20 years before I have to make this decision, but ... how do I raise my children to be comfortable with alcohol, when I do not partake of any myself? I don't plan on having it around the house ... so my choices are:

a) Get alcohol at times specifically to give it to my kids, without having it myself, and realistically not knowing exactly what it's going to do to them (since I have never partaken myself)
b) Send my kids over to someone else's house, who drinks, and let them teach my kids (this is only a possible solution if this imaginary person exists who I would trust with this)
c) Tell them about alcohol, but don't actually give them any

C) seems particularly dangerous, unless I'm really, really certain of my kids' mentalities ... but neither a) nor b) are really great options, either.

This is where I hope for option D (prohibition) but don't really expect it (nor really hope for it, of course, for the obvious reasons)...

I think it really depends on your kids. No one approach is going to work with all personalities. That having been said, I wouldn't introduce alcohol for the sake of introducing it. Living a life and running a house with alcohol will serve as an example that alcohol isn't necessary to have a good time. At the same time, if a situation comes up somewhere other than your house, say a toast at a family/friends house, or a trip over-seas or something, and your child(ren) seem curious, I think allowing them to try it would be good.

I think people make too big a deal about exposure to things, not just alcohol, but everything. If a kid doesn't want to drink, they won't. If they do, they will. Doesn't mean you have zero influence, but I think you can only moderate behavior, not create/destroy it.

[Dauphin]

The problem is that too many of them die because they drink and then go do something utterly retarded.

Like sign up?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kirnwaffen
I think there are two areas where we can really make strides with this problem. One starts at home, with parents educating their children about the effects of alcohol, and maybe even nurturing some controlled experience with it.

The problem is that parents are either alcoholics or are ****ed up in some other way. Either way it contributes to alcoholism.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Drinking age was 18 in Singapore; my daughter and most of her friends could drink legally as seniors and guess what? They didn't binge drink, they didn't go out and get ****faced every weekend, and on the whole they behaved more responsibly than most American college students I taught. Why? Well, in part because we raised her not to be an idiot, but also in part because drinking wasn't this stupidly taboo thing.

Then we got back to the US, and she's already had to forgo seeing two bands she really likes, because they were playing in over-21-only venues.

So, I'd be for lowering the drinking age to 18. But you've got to then either raise the driving age to 21 (edit: which i see a couple of other people have already suggested), or make drunk driving a serious felony with jail time for the first offense.

[Kuciwalker]

Driving age to 21 is obviously absurd.

[Kidlicious]

You can not raise the driving age to 21. People have to get to work and other places.

[Jon Miller]

I am beginning to wonder though about having any crime committed under the influence of alcohol be a major crime... rather than having it almost as an excuse as sometimes now.

JM

[Asher]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
So, I'd be for lowering the drinking age to 18. But you've got to then either raise the driving age to 21 (edit: which i see a couple of other people have already suggested), or make drunk driving a serious felony with jail time for the first offense.

Most provinces in Canada have zero tolerance for alcohol while driving for people under 21.

Anything at all, even a little, and you lose your license on the spot.

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You can not raise the driving age to 21. People have to get to work and other places.

So improve your public transportation system.