It's war. Part III

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Russia goes back on its word AGAIN!

I think NATO announced that it would suspend co-operation with Russia first. It's like 2 kids standing face to face shouting:
"I won't co-operate with you!"
"No, I won't co-operate with you!"
Now all we have to do is wait to see which one says:
"Well I stopped co-operating with you first."
"Nuh-uh"
"Uh-huh"
"Nun-uh"
"Uh-huh"
"Nuh-uh"
"Ok, you asked for this!"


"KA-BOOM!!!!!!!"

(Dr S re-initiaites mineshaft program, takes best breeders for himself.)

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


They want to force some action regarding the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Seriously, should this issue remain in limbo for another 16 years? It will only remain a flashpoint in Russia - US relations, perhaps even re-ignite the cold war. Both have a long history of desiring independence from Georgia, a history dating back 90 years. They've both been effectively seperated from Georgia for 16 years. Giving these areas independence would deprive Georgia of nothing it hasn't already lost.

Its like stripping Czechoslovakia of the Sudetenland and making it indefenseable. Every effort should be made to integrate S.Ossetia back into Georgia, particularly if Georgia becomes a NATO member, which is nuts...

Otherwise NATO would be presented with driving across Russia to free an already conquered Georgia. Its all completely insane, particularly considering the way the Turks are flaking out. There's no way to support Georgia without offensive operations into Russia.

[notyoueither]

Lancer, can you spot the difference between a country in the middle of Europe with borders on a half dozen important states, and a country in the middle of the Caucasus sandwiched between Turkey, Russia, and nowhere?

If Georgia is ever admitted to NATO, NATO will have gone at least one republic too far.

[Lancer]

Exactly.

[notyoueither]

So why should any effort whatsoever be made to put SO and Abkhazia back into Georgia?

[Lancer]

Because whether you and I agree or not, Georgia will be in NATO. The German, French and American presidents have all said so. Likely just to look presidencial, but there you go. Nice photo op. Since that's the case, in any future Russia vs Georgia conflict, we need the Georgians to hold out while a NATO army battles its way across southern Russia to assist them. That means the Georgians need their mountain barrier, that means they need South Ossetia.

That's also why I wanted to know about Russian armor in the other thread.

[notyoueither]

Since you love the WWII comparables, Great Britain and France promised to defend Poland. While they did go to war over the situation, there was very little defending to be done, and people came to accept it (except some Poles).

Later still, the RAF was pledged to defend France. The French are still pissed that wiser heads prevailed and some squadrons of spits were held back. Wise move, even if some French see it as a betrayal.

Even more remotely, the American president declared the US to be the arsenal of democracy. Some Brits will say that your congress was more willing to fight to the last Tommie, and last Pound. You see, there's plenty of recriminations to go around and statements are seldom to be taken at face value.

In short, relax. There's never going to be a single jeep sent to rescue Georgia, let alone a column of NATO tanks charging across Russia.

[Lancer]

If the Russians attack Georgia after Georgia is in NATO, that is exactly what will happen... and I am relaxed.

[notyoueither]

It makes it easier if I simply assume what your point is.

[Lancer]

Huh?

[Lancer]

Also, though I do try to learn from history the Sitskrieg doesn't really apply to the current topic imo. The French and Brits were shocked by the German tactics of Blitzkrieg. A replay of WWI was anticipated. They were not prepared in any way to launch an armored assault in the west of Germany to come to the aid of Poland in the east. All that has changed now. NATO would want to go straight into an offensive in order to assist Georgia and they are quite capable of it.

[binTravkin]

Yes, I distinctly remember talking circles around your naive notions two years ago. I also remember you calling that being a troll incorrectly back then as well.

Ok, whatever makes you feel better.

So again, what magic rule requires nations to nuke each other on a whim?

Emm, the same "magic rule that created Cold War perhaps (as opposed to a quite possible 3rd WW in the absence of nuclear holocaust threat) ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentials_of_Post-Cold_War_Deterrence

The article is notable not only for its significance in outlining current United States military strategy and foreign policy, but also for its explicit advocation of ambiguity regarding "what is permitted" for other nations and its endorsement of "irrationality", or more precisely, the perception thereof, as an important tool in deterrence and foreign policy.

Nevertheless the original "Confederation of the (Mountain) Peoples of the Caucasus" consisted of a coalition of Orthodox Christian and Muslim natives of the caucasus mountain region. Abkhazia declared independence in July 1992. The Georgians retook the province in August 1992. The Georgian commander Karkarashvilli proclasimed that he would take no rpisoners and threatened to leave no Abkazian descendants. By August 25 CPC forces, led by Chechens entered the area, coming to the Abkhazians aid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Mountain_Peoples_of_the_Caucasus

A clear purpose of the establishment of this organization became obvious after this Session. The Confederation created assault detachments of volunteers with Russian financial and military support

Which also was my point.

OH - MY - GOD! They was commies in the Soviet Union! Who'd have thought?! Geez, the perfidy of those Red bastards! Soviet citizens forced to go to Commie universities! Soviet administrators belonging to the Communist party! Did anyone know about this? Frack! I'll bet almost anyone over the age of 21 in Abkhazia today went to a Commie school. They should be disqualified!

Holy Shostakovich!! It turns out that Michael Saakashvilli was educated as a commie too!

Did I mention anywhere that being educated in a commie school makes you commie? I don't read that there.
What I said that most of those ppl have been leading figures in communist party, which suggest there's a high chance they still have ties with the people from the same organizations in Russia.
It's also quite obvious that those states are essentially puppets of Russia, so there's no wonder those guys have been put there with Russian aid and are loyal to them.

Btw, Russians pulled the date again:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3584876,00.html

Lancer, can you spot the difference between a country in the middle of Europe with borders on a half dozen important states, and a country in the middle of the Caucasus sandwiched between Turkey, Russia, and nowhere?

If Georgia is ever admitted to NATO, NATO will have gone at least one republic too far.

Huh? Sandwiched?
You might want to check out NATO map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Location_NATO.svg

Turkey is NATO too and there are other nations around, so "nowhere" doesn't really fit.

Both have a long history of desiring independence from Georgia, a history dating back 90 years.

If you count that 1918-1920 secession in, you could aswell divide half of Europe in numerous smaller states. Borders were wildly fluctuating here at that time.

In short, relax. There's never going to be a single jeep sent to rescue Georgia, let alone a column of NATO tanks charging across Russia.

Wait, but wasn't there already US equipment there despite Georgia not being in NATO or anything?
They have the NATO country with 2nd biggest (headcount) army to the south, so they could still have some help.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Lancer


Its like stripping Czechoslovakia of the Sudetenland and making it indefenseable. Every effort should be made to integrate S.Ossetia back into Georgia, particularly if Georgia becomes a NATO member, which is nuts...

NO, it's not, because in 1938 the Sudetenland hadn't been effectively independent of Czechoslovakia for 16 years. Furhtermore, AFAIK no Czeck general had ever threatened to exterminate the Sudeten Germans. Finally, no Sudeten independence movement existed prior to the ones set up by the Nazis, but Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence movements date back not only prior to the dissolution of the USSR, but even prior to its formation in 1920.

Otherwise NATO would be presented with driving across Russia to free an already conquered Georgia. Its all completely insane, particularly considering the way the Turks are flaking out. There's no way to support Georgia without offensive operations into Russia.

OK, so end the conflict now. IIRC the French and Germans put the nix on Georgian membershiup anyway.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by binTravkin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenti...War_Deterrence

Oh cool, an article about a paper written by the DOD. Wow, that's impartial. You know, when I went to school I was taught that Neegros were happy before the Civil War. Just because something is said by an authority figure doesn't make it true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Mountain_Peoples_of_the_Caucasus

Which also was my point.

I believe that article also mentions that the avowed purpose of the CPC was to dissmember Russia as well as Georgia. Does it make sense to you that the Russians would fund an organization whose charter essentially declared war upon Russia?

Did I mention anywhere that being educated in a commie school makes you commie? I don't read that there.
What I said that most of those ppl have been leading figures in communist party, which suggest there's a high chance they still have ties with the people from the same organizations in Russia.
It's also quite obvious that those states are essentially puppets of Russia, so there's no wonder those guys have been put there with Russian aid and are loyal to them.

But the man was neither a KGB agent or a Soviet general as you suggested. Since the Communist Party controlled education in those days most educated and most ambitious people in the USSR were party members. Those are the type of people who are most likely to seek and obtain political office.

You are aware that after WW2 the government of the Federal Republic of Germany employed quite a few former Nazis, and that many of the FRG's elected officials have also been former Nazis?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Oh cool, an article about a paper written by the DOD.

Perhaps you might find this paper more interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I believe that article also mentions that the avowed purpose of the CPC was to dissmember Russia as well as Georgia. Does it make sense to you that the Russians would fund an organization whose charter essentially declared war upon Russia?

Can you explain to me why if Russia didn't support the SO rebels, why it was that they made no move to stop thier provocative actions (shelling Georgian villages) against Georgia proper or why they rode in with Russian columns?