How can we save Ukraine?

[Kontiki]

No, it's going to be far worse. Since the fall of the communism, the pure evilness of Russia has grown exponentially. They were merely subhuman barbarians before, but now they're subhuman killing machines who all think that if you could merge Hitler and Stalin, you'd have a person only 1/10th evil enough!

[Lancer]

I disagree, I think you're being too hard on Russia. You need to get some perspective.

[rmsharpe]

Arm them to the teeth, since force is the only thing that Russians seem to understand.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Whoha
Since we've thrown Georgia under the bus I wouldn't hold out any hopes of us drawing the line at the Ukraine.

Georgia threw themselves under the bus, hoping we'd come pull them out. Maybe that's because of our idiot president, maybe not. Nonetheless, they brought this on themselves.

[chequita guevara]

It's funny how the most aggressive country in the world, the United States, is acting all high and might about another country being aggressive.

[GePap]

I heard someone else say this in another web site, but since when did the Soviet Union's administrative borders become sacrosant borders of eternal nationalistic importance?

The Crimea is a perfect example- it wasn't part of Ukraine until 1954. The population is mostly Russian, then Ukrainian, and then Tatar.

[chequita guevara]

I wasn't aware that Russia was claiming any Ukrainian territory.

[C0ckney]

gepap, i think it has a lot to do with the post 1945 doctrine of european borders only being changed by consent.

i think in many cases this has been applied too rigidly.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Saras
If the civilian deaths were very low, and Tskhinvali is not "Stalingrad", then Russia's case for invading becomes not so morally superior as some more romantically inclined Russian poster here believe.

Well, let's put for a moment the fact aside, that I have sympathies for Russia, and you antipathies, and try to think of it without any emotions.

There is a people in a certain region, separated by a border drawn by Stalin at a time when borders didn't play much of a role because all was one country anyway. I know and respect your feelings thinking of this time, but it happened and can not be discussed away.

Now a part of this people, right or wrong, stood up against their host and tried to secede. This happened 16 years ago and after several months of bloody fights, a truce has been reached and a peace was negotiated. Its conditions were to let the region have its autonomy (without however to let it secede completely), and to build a force of peacekeepers. This force consisted of troops from both parts of the people in question, and of their particular hosts. Doesn't sound too unreasonable, if putting away all prejudices (which was condition, remember?)

Now one side unilaterally decided to screw it and to get the renegade province back to the empire. Again, right or wrong, it doesn't matter. They choose a time where they think they can get away with it and let their tanks roll and their artillery fire. And it can't be denied that Georgia started it.

Yea I know, you heard of an obscure "armored column" approaching from Russia. But think of it: Such a large scale operation as the Georgian one can't be started right away from garrison duty hours after getting some recon. It demands preparing, transporting and amassing troops, and this will last several days. So if that column really existed, which I didn't hear about, I'm rather inclined to believe it was vice versa: The Russians saw what was coming for them and decided to bring reinforcements. But that are speculations.

Now we have a situation, where a region with a peacekeeping force in it is under attack. What military in the world worth a damn would allow this? What do you think the Americans would have done if Serbia rolled 2006 with tanks into Kosovo (still their province!) and shelled Pristina? It doesn't play a role if it is right or wrong, and not even if and how many people are killed. Nobody worth a toss will allow it, the attacker will be crushed first and questions asked later. And that's what we have seen in the past days.

Now let's hope the fighting is over and reason returns. To both sides, I may add.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It's funny how the most aggressive country in the world, the United States, is acting all high and might about another country being aggressive.

Aren't the Russians just responding to the totally unjustified, obviously unprovoked, and completely unpredictable Georgian attack on OS?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Whoha
Aren't the Russians just responding to the totally unjustified, obviously unprovoked, and completely unpredictable Georgian attack on OS?

Up until the point the Georgians realized they'd ****ed up and tried to end the fighting. What's going on now is unnecessary and is more about punishing Georgia and showing the world that Russia will not be pushed around anymore. People shouldn't have to die for that. If the West wasn't so hot to punish and blame Russia, this might already be over.

[chequita guevara]

You know, one of the best ways you could "save the Ukraine from its imminent annexation by Russia" rolleyes: is by inducting Russia in to NATO. Once Russia no longer feels hemmed in and under pressure, they'll be less paranoid about being surrounded.

[onodera]

Sadly, we have some territorial disputes with Estonia. However, they got into NATO, so I guess we would fit in just fine.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Up until the point the Georgians realized they'd ****ed up and tried to end the fighting. What's going on now is unnecessary and is more about punishing Georgia and showing the world that Russia will not be pushed around anymore. People shouldn't have to die for that. If the West wasn't so hot to punish and blame Russia, this might already be over.

now now, we wouldn't accept that cease fire unless it included turing over said persons responsible for the unprovoked and unjustified attack. Why are you being so hard on the Russia?

[onodera]

Originally posted by Saras


It depends on which bits of history you choose to ignore

I think you're ignoring the bit about Catherine the Great.
But even so, if certain parts of the Ukraine are heavily Russianized, it doesn't mean we will rush to annex them just because we got tired of a certain country's verbal attacks and used their military blunder to liberate them from their own army.

However, I'm afraid of Lithuania using its NATO membership to provoke us into attacking them by insulting our country and our people in the speeches of their leaders, counter our attack and reannex the territories that comprised Greater Lithuania. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LithuaniaHistory.png)

Yes, your paranoia makes as much sense as this one ^^^