GM Loses Another $16 Billion -- Bankrupt?

[Kidlicious]

Incidently, since you like the invisible hand so much consider how much it would cost you to get health care in an emergency room if prices were determined on willingness and ability to pay. Just thought I would add that.

[Ben Kenobi]

Incidently, since you like the invisible hand so much consider how much it would cost you to get health care in an emergency room if prices were determined on willingness and ability to pay. Just thought I would add that

You have an inflated perception of the Canadian system. I don't see why you want a system that doesn't work up here.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


You have an inflated perception of the Canadian system. I don't see why you want a system that doesn't work up here.

You think ordering health care can be like ordering fast food.

[Ben Kenobi]

You think ordering health care can be like ordering fast food.

Because I believe people should have access to timely health care?

I think people should take responsibility for their own health, rather then relying on other people to pay for them.

I also think people should be able to pay for premium care. You cannot do either here in Canada.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DanS
As stated earlier, this discussion about health care is too remote from reality. Why would the union car workers settle for universal health care?

Because Congress passes a law telling them they have no other choice.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Because Congress passes a law telling them they have no other choice.

Freedom of choice!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Because I believe people should have access to timely health care?

You just don't listen to what people say. I told you that you can't just walk into the ER and get care right away in this country. The reason is that they help people who need it the most first. That's a much better way than treating the people who can pay the most first. People generally agree that medicine should be seperated from a free market and that prices and service should not be determined by ability to pay.

I think people should take responsibility for their own health, rather then relying on other people to pay for them.

So do I. Again, you are making false arguments. A national health care system is paid for by everyone.

I also think people should be able to pay for premium care. You cannot do either here in Canada.

It's good that they can't. Rich people shouldn't get better care than poor people. Again, most people agree that they shouldn't.

[Ben Kenobi]

You just don't listen to what people say. I told you that you can't just walk into the ER and get care right away in this country.

Why not? If I can get a hamburger served to me, why can't I expect to walk into an er and have someone see me right away?

The reason is that they help people who need it the most first.

Why can't they simply treat everyone without delay. It doesn't matter how much you pay, what matters is the care is there for everyone. I agree if people have to wait the most injured should wait the longest. My question is why there should be a wait at all.

People generally agree that medicine should be seperated from a free market and that prices and service should not be determined by ability to pay.

And people also believe the opposite that more market intervention would be a good thing.

So do I. Again, you are making false arguments. A national health care system is paid for by everyone.

Which is why the majority don't pay anything. No, the health care system is paid for by some, and not by others.

It's good that they can't. Rich people shouldn't get better care than poor people. Again, most people agree that they shouldn't.

Why not? If they can afford to, they should be able to get better care.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why not? If I can get a hamburger served to me, why can't I expect to walk into an er and have someone see me right away?

1) There aren't enough doctors.

2) There's no telling how many people will walk into the ER at around the same time. If the line is too long at McD's people just say forget it. They aren't going to just say forget it when they have a medical emergency.

There are probably other reasons. It's just not practical.

And people also believe the opposite that more market intervention would be a good thing.

You'll have to be more specific. Your beliefs are so radical I would otherwise think that you propose no government control.

This is the bottom line. People believe that everyone deserves health care. Either they want it to be affordable or they want it to be national health care. In the US it isn't affordable.

Which is why the majority don't pay anything. No, the health care system is paid for by some, and not by others.

??? You work like everyone else. You tutor people's kids. Shouldn't the kid's parents who are doctors be inclined to care for you if you get sick?

Why not? If they can afford to, they should be able to get better care.

Because the demand for health care is infinite and resources are scarce. If rich people were able to buy up all the health care poor people wouldn't get any. That's why I asked you to imagine if rich people could just go into the ER and offer the hospital enough money to get them to treat them before the dying babies. Luckily hospitals aren't that shrewed.

[Ben Kenobi]

1) There aren't enough doctors.

Then perhaps we need to address the doctor shortage.

It's just not practical.

If it cost 50 bucks for a hospital visit, it would greatly improve things.

You'll have to be more specific. Your beliefs are so radical I would otherwise think that you propose no government control.

The government should have oversight, in investigating hospitals to ensure they meet the standards, but beyond that I don't see what more of a role they should have.

This is the bottom line. People believe that everyone deserves health care. Either they want it to be affordable or they want it to be national health care. In the US it isn't affordable.

And here we have access problems. National health care isn't a panacea.

??? You work like everyone else. You tutor people's kids. Shouldn't the kid's parents who are doctors be inclined to care for you if you get sick?

That's what they pay me for. If I get sick I should be able to look after myself.

Because the demand for health care is infinite and resources are scarce.

If rich people are paying for it, then demand is not infinite.

If rich people were able to buy up all the health care poor people wouldn't get any.

Again, if they are paying for it then demand is not infinite. If they charged a profit, they could use that profit to pay for the care of people who couldn't afford to pay.

That's why I asked you to imagine if rich people could just go into the ER and offer the hospital enough money to get them to treat them before the dying babies. Luckily hospitals aren't that shrewed.

Why shouldn't someone who is rich be able to get better care assuming that everyone who needs to be treated can be treated?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Then perhaps we need to address the doctor shortage.

As long as people are free to make decent money at other jobs there will be that problem. Becoming a doctor is a lot of very hard work.

If it cost 50 bucks for a hospital visit, it would greatly improve things.

No it wouldn't. People don't like to wait in the ER all night with a bunch of sick people.

The government should have oversight, in investigating hospitals to ensure they meet the standards, but beyond that I don't see what more of a role they should have.

Forget about the govt for a moment. The health care industry and profession does things itself to seperate the market from the industry. That's because the industry is unique. It's not like fast food or other industries where pure supply and demand work.

And here we have access problems. National health care isn't a panacea.

No, it's just better in many ways. It good for consumers, businesses, government etc... The only people who don't like it are people like yourself you are paranoid about socialism spreading to the wider economy.

That's what they pay me for. If I get sick I should be able to look after myself.

Well in the US they wouldn't be paying you enough. Don't you think they should?

If rich people are paying for it, then demand is not infinite.

That makes no sense. What I'm saying is that people will pay an infinite amount of money for health care in order to stay healthy.

Why shouldn't someone who is rich be able to get better care assuming that everyone who needs to be treated can be treated?

But you know they can't. That's the problem. There isn't enough to go around.

[Ben Kenobi]

As long as people are free to make decent money at other jobs there will be that problem. Becoming a doctor is a lot of very hard work.

Which is why we should compensate them based on demand, not on what the government can afford to pay them. Not only is it hard to become a doc, but it's hard to retain one, when they can make more money elsewhere.

No it wouldn't. People don't like to wait in the ER all night with a bunch of sick people.

It would reduce frivolous visits.

Forget about the govt for a moment. The health care industry and profession does things itself to seperate the market from the industry. That's because the industry is unique. It's not like fast food or other industries where pure supply and demand work.

I'm not asking for pure supply and demand, just that privatisation would be better then the system in Canada. I'm aware that hospitals do need to ensure that everyone is treated, but not every hospital needs to do the same thing. It would be more efficient for the hospitals to specialise.

No, it's just better in many ways. It good for consumers,

If they can get in, sure.

The only people who don't like it are people like yourself you are paranoid about socialism spreading to the wider economy.

No, personally, my grandmother just broke her hip. She's getting treatment in 3 weeks, despite it being an emergency.

In the states she wouldn't wait 3 days. That's a huge difference.

Well in the US they wouldn't be paying you enough. Don't you think they should?

It's my business. I charge what they are able to pay, no more, no less. If it's not enough for health insurance then I have to take another job or find more clients.

That makes no sense. What I'm saying is that people will pay an infinite amount of money for health care in order to stay healthy.

What makes you think that? No, people don't pay an infinite amount to stay healthy. If it costs, they will determine whether they need the surgery now, or put it off.

But you know they can't. That's the problem. There isn't enough to go around.

It's not a zero sum game. If you charge a profit on elective surgeries, you can funnel that profit into the emergency services.

[Asher]

Kid vs Ben...this will never end.

[Darius871]

It's like a broken record, but more hypnotizing...

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Asher
Kid vs Ben...this will never end.

I think this might be the ultimate apolyton debate.

JM