Poly is making me right wing

[Ramo]

I must ask you, do you see Goldwater anywhere on that list?

For the second time, I never said vote. Why would he correct me?

Based on what Ramo, divination? Did you resurrect Goldwater and asked him what he thought about the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

I included a cite. Goldwater was the Republican nominee for President a year before the legislation was passed, and was Senator for a couple decades afterwards. You don't think journalists couldn't ask him?

Which is why his unquestioned support of the war in vietnam lead him to a massive victory.

Right, I see how that works.

You're putting words into my mouth. I never said "unquestioned support." And Nixon's victory over Humphrey was one of the closest in history - 0.7%. It was only slightly larger than Gore's popular vote margin over Bush (0.5%).

And you are telling me that if Jesse Jackson were white and he said "I was Dr. King's homeboy" that he would get 90 percent of the black vote?

You made a bald assertion. It was completely wrong. Totally. Al Sharpton did not get 90% of the black vote. Stop trying to change your argument into something completely different.

Yes sir.

So it's an article of faith for you? Jeez, this is like the Helen Keller thread.

[Ben Kenobi]

I included a cite. Goldwater was the Republican nominee for President a year before the legislation was passed, and was Senator for a couple decades afterwards. You don't think journalists couldn't ask him?

Well where is the cite? I don't see it.

As far as I'm aware, Goldwater supported the previous civil rights bills, just that he saw the civil rights bill in 1964 as overly intrusive.

You're putting words into my mouth. I never said "unquestioned support." And Nixon's victory over Humphrey was one of the closest in history - 0.7%. It was only slightly larger than Gore's popular vote margin over Bush (0.5%).

One of the closest? Nixon had a landslide. Since when is winning by over 100 EC votes a tight race.

The only reason the popular vote was even close is because you had three parties with Wallace and LeMay. That would be like Clinton losing to HW Bush even after the vote splitting.

You made a bald assertion. It was completely wrong. Totally. Al Sharpton did not get 90% of the black vote. Stop trying to change your argument into something completely different.

I asked a question. Did you miss it?

So it's an article of faith for you? Jeez, this is like the Helen Keller thread.

You asked me if I believed he was a conservative, and the answer to that is yes. What more do you want? I've listed my reasons why he is a conservative in the thread.

[Ben Kenobi]

dp

[Imran Siddiqui]

I had a in depth response and then the forum died on me, so here's the short version:

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Wait a sec. Before I answer the Thurmond question, I want you to answer the question I've asked you three times.

Is Margaret Sanger a conservative?

I dunno. All I know is two contrary positions... contraception and white supremacy. So I'd say she was a conservative on race relations and a liberal on women's rights.

Clearly their concept of states rights is different. They believe the powers should be divided in a different fashion. Yes, they believe in states rights more so then a statist, but not so much as classical liberals. That is the crux of the difference.

You are making this **** up as you go along, aren't you? So where do these arbitrary lines start and stop from? Or are you deciding where you want to put these people in your head first and then drawing the lines.

I'm betting on the later.

Umm, ok Imran. I'm going to leave you go off on that tangent. I am arguing that conservatives wanted out of Vietnam because it was LBJ who got them in. That is all I was saying. I don't see what Quayle has to do with Nixon's platform in 1968.

So... it was a partisan politics decision and not based on any principle? May I remind you that Nixon got the US more deep into the war (expanding it to Cambodia and all) before he drew it down. His opponent in 1972, after all, was well known for his wanting to end the war ASAP.

There are many people who believe that it is ok to break a just law in order to correct an unjust one. That is a recipe for civil disobedience with violence and property destruction, because they believe that the bigger injustice exists and that in order to correct things requires one to break other laws to get the point across.

How many Senators, Congressmen, and Governors in the US today believe that it is ok to break a just law in order to correct an unjust one? I doubt all that many at all believe the ends justify the means. You don't get elected if that's your point of view... well, unless you are the Bush Administration, I guess.

Then again, isn't breaking laws against trespassing and blocking streets to protest against civil rights breaking a "just law" in order to correct an "unjust one"?

[Imran Siddiqui]

What more do you want? I've listed my reasons why he is a conservative in the thread.

Which involved ignoring Dr. King's proposed policies completely.

[Ben Kenobi]

I dunno. All I know is two contrary positions... contraception and white supremacy. So I'd say she was a conservative on race relations and a liberal on women's rights.

So what you are saying is that conservatives are racists who believe that we should kill black people to keep the white man pure?

You call me a conservative. Do you think I believe this too? I'm not surprised to hear that you believe racism is a conservative ideal. It makes everything click for me why you are so resistant to calling King a conservative.

You are making this **** up as you go along, aren't you? So where do these arbitrary lines start and stop from? Or are you deciding where you want to put these people in your head first and then drawing the lines.

This is an important policy distinction. I'm not sure why you seem so unfamiliar with the issue. Libertarians and conservatives have different degrees of public spending and intervention in the economy. Why are you surprised to hear me say this?

So... it was a partisan politics decision and not based on any principle? May I remind you that Nixon got the US more deep into the war

Peak troop load was in '68 and declined thereafter. That argument won't wash.

(expanding it to Cambodia and all) before he drew it down. His opponent in 1972, after all, was well known for his wanting to end the war ASAP.

Well that's true. Wallace after all was shot paving the way for McGovern.

The result of that discussion was a 49-1 state victory for Nixon. Clearly his draw down policy was more popular then McGovern's immediate withdrawal.

Then again, isn't breaking laws against trespassing and blocking streets to protest against civil rights breaking a "just law" in order to correct an "unjust one"?

I would agree with you there, and that is what I was referring too. There are many protesters who are willing to disregard just laws in order to get the word out. Exhibit A we saw in Seattle.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So what you are saying is that conservatives are racists who believe that we should kill black people to keep the white man pure?

You call me a conservative. Do you think I believe this too? I'm not surprised to hear that you believe racism is a conservative ideal. It makes everything click for me why you are so resistant to calling King a conservative.

I think it is well known that those who wished to conserve the traditions of racial relations prior to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 were the conservatives. That is obvious (after all, why would liberals be wanting to preserve that tradition?). Secondly, it is well known that the Southern Democrats who left in droves after the passage of the Civil Rights Bill were considered the conservative Democrats (in fact that was the beginning of the end for both conservatives in the Democratic Party and liberals in the Republican Party [like Nelson Rockefeller]).

And I think you should stop trying to put words into people's mouths. It just makes you look like a bigger idiot than you already come across as.

This is an important policy distinction. I'm not sure why you seem so unfamiliar with the issue. Libertarians and conservatives have different degrees of public spending and intervention in the economy. Why are you surprised to hear me say this?

Because your definitions of the differences in intervention in the economy wouldn't be shared by most libertarians or most conservatives?

I can guarantee you that Republicans would say that they are, not only conservatives, but the party that is dedicated to states rights. Especially since Reagan, who made it central.

Peak troop load was in '68 and declined thereafter. That argument won't wash.

Did Nixon expand the war to include Cambodia, or did he not?

The result of that discussion was a 49-1 state victory for Nixon. Clearly his draw down policy was more popular then McGovern's immediate withdrawal.

Well, McGovern was also a bit far left for the time, what with people thinking he was for legalization of pot, pro-abortion, etc. and his first VP candidate having to be jettisoned because of undisclosed electro-shock therapy.

I would agree with you there, and that is what I was referring too. There are many protesters who are willing to disregard just laws in order to get the word out. Exhibit A we saw in Seattle.

What do you mean "that is what I was referring to"?! I was referring to Dr. King's tactics. What do you think sit ins were?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Btw, speaking of Sanger, you do realize that Martin Luther King, Jr. won the 1966 Margaret Sanger award, given out by Planned Parenthood, right? And in his acceptance speech (read in person by his wife), he wrote:

there is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger's early efforts

At the turn of the century she went into the slums and set up a birth control clinic, and for this deed she went to jail because she was violating an unjust law. Yet the years have justified her actions. She launched a movement which is obeying a higher law to preserve human life under humane conditions. Margaret Sanger had to commit what was then called a crime in order to enrich humanity, and today we honor her courage and vision; for without them there would have been no beginning.

Our sure beginning in the struggle for equality by nonviolent direct action may not have been so resolute without the tradition established by Margaret Sanger and people like her.

He also backed the Supreme Court's decision to ban prayer in school, saying:

I endorse it. I think it was correct. Contrary to what many have said, it sought to outlaw neither prayer nor belief in God. In a pluralistic society such as ours, who is to determine what prayer shall be spoken, and by whom? Legally, constitutionally or otherwise, the state certainly has no such right. I am strongly opposed to the efforts that have been made to nullify the decision. They have been motivated, I think, by little more than the wish to embarrass the Supreme Court.

This in addition to his economic socialism, where he backed reparations for blacks and quotas as well as speaking for Democratic Socialism.

[Ben Kenobi]

If racism is a conservative ideal, do you believe I'm a racist too?

I'm asking Imran. You are the only one who is saying racism is a conservative trait.

Because your definitions of the differences in intervention in the economy wouldn't be shared by most libertarians or most conservatives?

I can guarantee you that Republicans would say that they are, not only conservatives, but the party that is dedicated to states rights. Especially since Reagan, who made it central.

Which is why Reagan interpreted 'states rights' in the same way Wallace does?

Did Nixon expand the war to include Cambodia, or did he not?

How can you expand the war and lower the troop levels?

I mean Bush could include outer mongolia in this war, but it don't matter if you lower the troop counts.

What do you mean "that is what I was referring to"?! I was referring to Dr. King's tactics. What do you think sit ins were?

Hmm? His protests were peaceful.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

You call me a conservative. Do you think I believe this too? I'm not surprised to hear that you believe racism is a conservative ideal. It makes everything click for me why you are so resistant to calling King a conservative.

You seriously believe that King was a conservative?

[Agathon]

Ben

Goldwater is a poor example. Late in life he himself regretted the movement he'd helped to start. I believed he called people like you "a bunch of kooks".

If racism is a conservative ideal, do you believe I'm a racist too?

Racism isn't always a conservative ideal. However it is an authoritarian trait, and authoritarians tend to be political and religious conservatives (in fact, that's what we really mean when we talk about left and right these days).

For what it's worth, I don't believe you're a racist. I think you're a sincere Christian who could do with taking a harder look at the "judge not" passage, and some of the more revolutionary parts of the Gospels.

The Jesus of the Gospels is not a conservative. He is a religious radical, preaching an absolute egalitarianism, the abolition of hate and the triumph of forgiveness. Frankly, the religious right could do with some more of those three things. Frankly, Jesus' message could be summed up as: "Stop being self-righteous ****** and be nice to everyone!". For his trouble, he was nailed to a piece of wood.

Jesus hung out with prositutes and lepers, not wealthy Republican politicians. If he were alive today, he'd be hanging out with homeless people, blacks, gays and AIDS patients.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
If racism is a conservative ideal, do you believe I'm a racist too?

I'm asking Imran. You are the only one who is saying racism is a conservative trait.

Do you always make logical fallacies in your arguments?

Just because conservatives have been responsible for most of the racism in the 20th Century US, doesn't mean that ALL conservatives are racists.

Which is why Reagan interpreted 'states rights' in the same way Wallace does?

Interestingly enough, two conservatives. And I'd say that Reagan did far more for states rights than any 20th Century politician.

How can you expand the war and lower the troop levels?

Are you telling me that invading another country is NOT expanding a war? Seriously... take a step back and think about what you've posted for a second here.

And, of course, there were no such things as bombers in the US military in the 1970s, no siree!

Hmm? His protests were peaceful.

And? They still involved violating just laws to correct unjust ones, which was the point. No one said anything about violent protests.

But if you want examples of non-violent protests, plenty of union demonstrations you can look at (and I can't wait to see you try to say unions are conservative)

[Arrian]

Train. Wreck.

Whatever will he assert next?

-Arrian

[Kontiki]

Did you miss his assertion that you support Sharia law?

[Arrian]

I saw it and was so confused by it I didn't know what to say. Total WTF.

-Arrian