California court strikes a blow for children; homeschooling virtually outlawed.

[Ben Kenobi]

How much did your teachers teach you CS/trig/etc?

Computer Science? Very little. Trig was a huge part of my math courses which I had from grade 8 through to grade 12.

For most students (and most teachers) the teacher has hardly any involvement in the learning process at all.

That doesn't strike my experiences in the public school system at all. Most of the teachers were very involved and did an excellent job teaching. Of course, being in IB helped things along.

And, btw, I am OK with higher standards being required of homeschooled students then public school stuents. As that allowed for public school students is atrocious.

I can't agree with that. Up here, students have to write provincial exams, and I don't see how difficult it would be to have homeschooled children do the same. In distance education you would have the child do the same with invigilated examinations, and that would be one solution for homeschooling students in California. Why not assign them markers? I did distance education (for biology, because I was aware of what I was missing), and I did just fine, except for the labs, which were rather difficult to do

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
How much did your teachers teach you CS/trig/etc? For most students (and most teachers) the teacher has hardly any involvement in the learning process at all. They are mainly there to maintain order, keep the students studying, and give tests/etc.

And, btw, I am OK with higher standards being required of homeschooled students then public school stuents. As that allowed for public school students is atrocious.

Jon Miller

... Again with the tragedy.

Good teachers teach their students the material. Poor teachers 'keep order'. You use 'most' in a way that is most definitely incorrect; in my experience, 'most' teachers are fairly good teachers, and 'most' students do not self-motivate adequately to teach themselves. For example, I had a disaster of a AP Physics C teacher (mentally unstable etc.), and due to the constant substitute teaching (which obviously doesn't work) several of us decided to go teach ourselves. (The several who were the MOST motivated and MOST intelligent in the class, by the way.)

Unsurprisingly, we didn't do nearly as well as we would have with a good teacher; we didn't cover all of the material, and didn't have a thorough understanding as compared with students who had taken my father's AP Physics C class a few years ago (he had stopped teaching and moved onto Law by that point). He taught people generally less intelligent and less motivated than myself - and they didn't have physicists at home to ask questions of, either... and they got better scores than we did by a significant amount. (I got a 5 on mechanics only due to the difficulty everyone has with it - I finished maybe 2/3 of the questions - but didn't even take the E+M portion as I would have gotten a 2 if I was lucky. In contrast, I got a solid 5 on both AP Bio and AP Chem, and overall passed 21 AP tests in high school, most of them with 5s. One of the others passed with a lower score mechanics (only), and the other chose not to take the test after failing practice exams.)

Teachers make a huge difference, and most students - even most highly intelligent students - need teachers.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


John Jay quit the Supreme Court because it had no power. I think you're speaking of John Marshall.

John Marshall said that a court could strike down a law when it conflicted with the Constitution because the Constitution expressed the will of the people while a statute only expressed the will of the Legislature, who are the servants of the people.

Oops, indeed... Not sure why I confuse those two.

[Zkribbler]

Both early Chief Justi. Both named "John."

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
How much did your teachers teach you CS/trig/etc? For most students (and most teachers) the teacher has hardly any involvement in the learning process at all. They are mainly there to maintain order, keep the students studying, and give tests/etc.

There are plenty of students who struggle and need someone there to explain concepts to them and help them work through it. Those are the cases that miminum standards are there to catch.

(And no, I wasn't one of those cases. I did have a couple good teachers who helped me even then though.)

[Jon Miller]

Snoopy:

Did you miss the point of keeping the students studying/taking tests? It is that which is important. The motivation.

Jon Miller

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
If we are going to get upset about the few people who slip through the cracks of the homeschoolers, why aren't we having a revolution over the majority who fall into the gaping holes in our public schools?

One could simply be consistent and want to prevent both from happening, rather than trying to obfuscate the issue(s) by bringing up red herring.

[Jon Miller]

Any amount of bureaucratic red tape is a barrier.

We set an acceptable level in this country. Home schoolers more than pass it. Why set up a barrier?

And how is one being consistent? We are already requiring the homeschooled students to pass the same tests. I am willing to require them to pass even harder tests.

JM

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Any amount of bureaucratic red tape is a barrier.

We set an acceptable level in this country. Home schoolers more than pass it. Why set up a barrier?

Requiring parents to show some measure of competency in the subject matter they are supposedly teaching their children is not very much to ask.

Unlike you, I do not think that "losing a year" is an acceptable outcome.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
And how is one being consistent? We are already requiring the homeschooled students to pass the same tests. I am willing to require them to pass even harder tests.

Consistent is to try and ensure the best learning environment for children whether they are in Public, Private, or Home schooling.

Pretending that public schools' woes negate the need for parents to show competency in the subject matter they are going to teach their kids is a red herring.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Aeson

Unlike you, I do not think that "losing a year" is an acceptable outcome.

It happens very rarely, and happens (or should happen) much more often in public schools.

I know of no evidence that those who fail public school do so because their parents don't know the material. All evidence I have heard of (as well as first hand experience) is that those who fail have parents who don't care about their child's education.

And how is the test going to test that?

Jon Miller

[Zkribbler]

Of course, Tom Lehrer has a fitting song:

You can't take three from two,
Two is less than three,
So you look at the four in the tens place.
Now that's really four tens
So you make it three tens,
Regroup, and you change a ten to ten ones,
And you add 'em to the two and get twelve,
And you take away three, that's nine.
Is that clear?

Now instead of four in the tens place
You've got three,
'Cause you added one,
That is to say, ten, to the two,
But you can't take seven from three,
So you look in the hundreds place.

From the three you then use one
To make ten ones...
(And you know why four plus minus one
Plus ten is fourteen minus one?
'Cause addition is commutative, right!)...
And so you've got thirteen tens
And you take away seven,
And that leaves five...

Well, six actually...
But the idea is the important thing!

Now go back to the hundreds place,
You're left with two,
And you take away one from two,
And that leaves...?

Everybody get one?
Not bad for the first day!

Hooray for New Math,
New-hoo-hoo Math,
It won't do you a bit of good to review math.
It's so simple,
So very simple,
That only a child can do it!

Now, that actually is not the answer that I had in mind, because the book that I got this problem out of wants you to do it in base eight. But don't panic! Base eight is just like base ten really - if you're missing two fingers! Shall we have a go at it? Hang on...

You can't take three from two,
Two is less than three,
So you look at the four in the eights place.
Now that's really four eights,
So you make it three eights,
Regroup, and you change an eight to eight ones
And you add 'em to the two,
And you get one-two base eight,
Which is ten base ten,
And you take away three, that's seven.
Ok?

Now instead of four in the eights place
You've got three,
'Cause you added one,
That is to say, eight, to the two,
But you can't take seven from three,
So you look at the sixty-fours...

"Sixty-four? How did sixty-four get into it?" I hear you cry! Well, sixty-four is eight squared, don't you see? "Well, ya ask a silly question, ya get a silly answer!"

From the three, you then use one
To make eight ones,
You add those ones to the three,
And you get one-three base eight,
Or, in other words,
In base ten you have eleven,
And you take away seven,
And seven from eleven is four!
Now go back to the sixty-fours,
You're left with two,
And you take away one from two,
And that leaves...?

Now, let's not always see the same hands!
One, that's right.
Whoever got one can stay after the show and clean the erasers.

Hooray for New Math,
New-hoo-hoo Math!
It won't do you a bit of good to review math.
It's so simple,
So very simple,
That only a child can do it!

Come back tomorrow night...we're gonna do fractions!

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
It happens very rarely, and happens (or should happen) much more often in public schools.

Steps should be taken to help prevent kids from falling behind in both cases.

I know of no evidence that those who fail public school do so because their parents don't know the material. All evidence I have heard of (as well as first hand experience) is that those who fail have parents who don't care about their child's education.

Um... you mean home school?

And how is the test going to test that?

If the parents bother to take steps necessary to show their competency it would also show at least some minimal desire on their part to ensure their child's education.

More-so than if they can't be arsed to learn or show competency in the subject matter themselves.